Suffocate9920 ,

I recently moved my media PC to Linux Mint. I had Bluetooth issues with windows despite my hardware not that old and 'Windows 11 ready'. Zero problems on Linux. I play the same games thanks to Steam Proton library. I use Mac for work. So I finally did it. No more Windows. I tried to switch 5 years ago. But today Linux is polished. And mostly works as expected. You still need to open terminal a few times to change some settings. I'm happy. Highly recommended.

skoell13 ,

I switched recently to Nobara after having a great experience with my steam deck. However, I'll probably add windows as a dual boot option since CS2 doesn't run properly (like 16fps..).

gaael ,

CS2 linux version has some issues. Sometimes forcing steam to install the windows version and to run it via proton makes things better.

skoell13 ,

Thanks for the tip. I'll definitely try that.

A_Random_Idiot , (edited )
@A_Random_Idiot@lemmy.world avatar

I dont have CS2 because, well, the obvious reasons. But I do have the original Skylines, and its linux version is also a festering pile of rancid dogshit.

Running the windows version via proton made it run smooth, stable (well, as stable as can be expected with a few hundred mods..lol), and without headache.

so yeah, install windows version and use proton. Overall better experience probably.

Honestly, i think thats my advice about gaming on linux in general, to generally avoid the native version. Personally, I've only run into two games that the native version wasnt shit, and that was Stardew Valley and Rimworld.

Corvid ,

CS2 is Counter Strike 2. Cities: Skylines 2 is C:S2

whatsgoingdom ,

I tried to get nobara to run a few times but sth was always broken.
I'm now on Bazzite after testing Linux Mint a few months.
Bazzite seems to be the more polished fedora based gaming distro.

skoell13 ,

I'll have a look into that. For work I use Mint and really like it, however wanted to have a gaming distro that already delivers everything that I need and since I already used ProtonGE it was a natural choice for me. But i already had some issues with it probably due to NVidia drivers. Seems to be better now with the latest kernel

whatsgoingdom ,

I think I get slightly better performance on Bazzite than on mint. Mint e.g. still has the 535 Nvidia drivers as recommended (we're at 550 now).
On Bazzite you'll probably have to enable x11 until the new update with explicit sync drops mid May. (At least I had a ton of flickering on Wayland with my rtx 3060)

Syltti ,

Using Bazzite, myself. I have a weird issue with rebooting, though. Tends to freeze at the boot screen (grub doesn't show up at all) then the whole boot/login process becomes a slideshow. This doesn't happen if I manually turn my PC off and turn it on, though. Really odd problem that I haven't had on other distros.

I like Bazzite as a whole, though.

whatsgoingdom ,

That sounds awful. Have you tried disabling energy saving options (like automatic screenlock/sleep)?

Syltti ,

Automatic screen lock and auto-sleep get disabled everytime I install a KDE DE. I could take a closer look at energy savings, but I don't think there's much else I can do there. I know it's not hardware-related, as this doesn't happen with any other distro. May be an issue with KDE 6, for all I know. Gonna have to look into it more when I get home from work.

A_Random_Idiot ,
@A_Random_Idiot@lemmy.world avatar

How was it broken?

whatsgoingdom ,

I had a lot of crashes as soon as I installed it. Must have been some driver/hardware issues probably.
I'm not knowledgeable enough (and frankly had no energy to troubleshoot) I just installed mint which ran without (much) trouble.
I was interested in a more up to date system and KDE plasma as well as pipewire already integrated and looked at bazzite (after another unsuccessful try at nobara) - have been t running it for a few weeks now and I'm perfectly happy with it. CS 2 also runs without problems - but I mainly cast matches instead of playing myself.

BReel ,

I just got a steam deck, and needed to install FF14 (non steam) so I was mucking around in desktop mode… yeah. I’ll prob be getting a spare drive for my tower now to try out Linux. I’d love nothing more then to cut ties to windows.

Peter_Arbeitslos ,
@Peter_Arbeitslos@discuss.tchncs.de avatar

I switched from Win10 to Arch and now I do have problems with bluetooth, because my mouse officially only supports Windows. Think I will just force my mouse to support Arch (or the other way around). Still way better and faster than Windows.

jonasw ,

Now I'm a bit curious how a mouse could theoretically be windows only?

IIRC bluetooth mice use basically the USB protocol but through bluetooth instead of a cable.

Peter_Arbeitslos ,
@Peter_Arbeitslos@discuss.tchncs.de avatar

It says officially so and I couldn’t connect so far, I’ll let you know if I manage to connect it.

jonasw ,

What mouse is it?

Peter_Arbeitslos ,
@Peter_Arbeitslos@discuss.tchncs.de avatar

https://www.rapoo-eu.com/product/mt350/
Ok, Windows, Mac, ChromeOS, iOS and Android, I will probably get to fix it if I have some time.

jonasw ,

This one should work via bluetooth, some pages online indicate so, and it would be very rare that a bluetooth mouse does not work on linux.

And it should absolutely work via the little usb dongle that came with the mouse, as for example my logitech wireless mouse even works in my uefi/bios with the usb receiver.

Peter_Arbeitslos ,
@Peter_Arbeitslos@discuss.tchncs.de avatar

I sadly don't have the right USB-port for it, but I'll try fixing it without the dongle. Which pages?

jonasw ,

I just searched for "rapoo mt350 linux" and there were some seller sites which said that it supports linux

For example the amazon entry also indicates this:

https://www.amazon.com/Multi-Device-Wireless-Bluetooth-Pre-Installed-Compatible/dp/B09R1G1MJQ

Operating System ‎Mac OS 7 and above, Linux, Windows 10 and above

But as I said there is literally no reason for why it shouldn't work

Peter_Arbeitslos ,
@Peter_Arbeitslos@discuss.tchncs.de avatar

Actually, the mouse is broken.

jonasw ,

:( what does broken mean?

Peter_Arbeitslos ,
@Peter_Arbeitslos@discuss.tchncs.de avatar

The movement-sensitive laser at the desk side of the mouse does not work anymore.

jonasw ,

R.I.P.🪦😓

ILikeBoobies ,

Yeah, on Windows Heroes of the Storm was using 10gb on my gpu and stuttering massively

On Linux (Lutris) it just works

KrapKake ,

Hey fellow HoTS Linuxer!

Katana314 ,

I may yet try it in the next few years. I think one large frustration I anticipate (among others) is keyboard shortcuts. I've become very experienced with those on Windows, and my brief efforts at Linux (eg, on my Steam Deck's monitor hookup) have not come across enough matches for them.

I can absolutely see value in enduring the pain of a large switch though.

bruhduh ,
@bruhduh@lemmy.world avatar

Linux mint keyboard shortcuts mimic those of windows tho, Linux mint is the best choice for windows refugees, this is one of the things majority of Linux community is agree about. Edit: in Linux mint you also can change keyboard shortcuts with gui tools already pre installed

captainlezbian ,

Funny, one of my longstanding frustrations with windows was that I didn’t get a say in my keyboard shortcuts. Namely the fact that the shortcut to swap keyboard layouts has historically been very easy to accidentally hit.

gravitas_deficiency ,

As someone who uses all 3 (work-issue MBP, personal dev laptop on fedora 40, overbuilt gaming-oriented desktop on w10 with a dual boot Ubuntu partition I haven’t used in ages because WSL lets me do what I need to most of the time), it’s really not that bad. Then again, I’ve had a trifecta like that for well over a decade at this point, so maybe I’ve just fully acclimatized to switching machines and OSes for different primary activities all the time.

pressanykeynow ,

If you ever do switch I suggest something with KDE, I love keyboard shortcuts and I find anything other(Windows the most) extremely lacking in that field.

captainlezbian ,

Yeah in college I tried to switch for nerd cred and it sucked, but over the past year I switched and while I’ve had some hiccups, I honestly think it’s more a result of me going with an arch based distro than a Debian one. I’m thinking I may hop soon, but I assume it’ll be a massive pain

Llewellyn ,

I thought Arch was more tricky, than Debian

captainlezbian ,

It is, it’s trickier and less supported

InFerNo ,

My friend, have you checked out the arch user repository? What do you mean with less supported btw?

captainlezbian ,

Less officially supported. Say what you will about the chaotic aur it is chaotic. I think I bit off a bit more than I can chew

dingus , (edited )

Whenever I try switching to Linux, there is always something that doesn't work right and takes forever to finagle with to fix if it's even possible. I'm primarily a Linux Mint fan (daily drove it on my aging desktop until it died of old age a few years back), but I've also dabbled in a few other noob-friendly distros like Ubuntu (was really into it when everything was still orange and brown lol) and Pop OS.

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love using Linux to breathe new life into older systems, but it just isn't a good option for me personally if my device hasn't gotten sluggish yet.

As an example, I have an aging laptop that started blue screening a bunch. It doesn't support the Win 11 upgrade due to it's processor not meeting minimum specs. So I thought it was finally time to see if Linux would improve it.

First of all, I had a hell of a time installing various distros without having them boot to a black screen after installation completes. Took absolutely forever to finally sus this out on the various distros I tried. Then I find that the couple extra buttons on my basic Logitech mouse don't work. These are essential buttons for me that I use constantly. I go through a million troubleshooting steps before finding out that it's a Wayland issue, so I switch back to Xorg and everything is cool. But then I start running into lag issues which never occurred on my Windows install. I also tried playing some games I had in my Epic Games library. I could not for the life of me get it to work, no matter which platform I tried. I get that Steam has better Linux compatibility, but not all of us have all of our games on Steam.

Finally got tired of the whole ordeal and switched back to Windows. Did a bit more troubleshooting and seemed to have resolved the blue screen issues and now it seems to work perfectly and much better out of the box than Linux. It's not an old enough device a Linux refresh to be worth it yet.

I get that Lemmings are die hard Linux fans, and I think Linux has some fantastic use cases...but for many users it actually isn't a good alternative. I find it works best when you want to breathe new life into older hardware or if you have every component specifically built to work for a particular Linux distro. But when basic features don't work properly without hours of troubleshooting (if you can ever get them to work at all), it's a little hard to just recommend it to your average Joe whose Windows/Mac computer works just fine.

This "everything just works" Linux experience a lot of people talk about on Lemmy/Reddit has absolutely never been my experience, even though I've been a casual Linux fan for over a decade now. Meanwhile, I've had the opposite experience with Windows (unless you're talking really old Windows versions like Win XP and older).

TheFeatureCreature ,
@TheFeatureCreature@lemmy.world avatar

This. I have dabbled with various Linux distros over the past 15+ years out of curiosity. I have, without fail, had to spend days troubleshooting and fixing various problems of all kinds. Sometimes it was WiFi drivers, sometimes it was GPU drivers, sometimes it was power management issues, and most recently it's soundcard drivers and poor audio control/quality issues. I always installed Linux as dual-boot so I had my normal Windows install to fall back on but I just couldn't see myself able to fully switch primary OS over.

Nowadays I couldn't switch over even if I wanted to because numerous programs I use for my work are not supported properly or at all. Linux has indeed come a long way over the years in terms of UX and software compatibility, but not everyone uses their computer just for games. There is a lot of creative and productivity software (and devices!) that have limited or zero Linux support and many FOSS alternatives are not sufficient. I hate Adobe as much as the next person and Photoshop is a bloated pile of trash, but part of my soul dies whenever a Linux fan tells me I can just replace Photoshop with GIMP. GIMP is clownware.

Another major issue I had was the community itself. When troubleshooting the issues I've had over the years, one big problem that kept popping back up was how toxic and condescending the Linux community can be. On more than a few occasions my requests for help on forums were met with passive aggressiveness and hostility because I "should have known better" or something along those lines. The most recent example I can think of was someone asking me to post a debug log to troubleshoot an issue I had and I had to ask him where to find the log. He told me the folder it would be in but not the folder path to get there. When I asked again where to find the log, he just told me that "maybe Linux isn't for you".

You know what? Maybe it isn't. It sure isn't for most people and I can't see that changing soon.

TSG_Asmodeus ,
@TSG_Asmodeus@lemmy.world avatar

Another major issue I had was the community itself. When troubleshooting the issues I’ve had over the years, one big problem that kept popping back up was how toxic and condescending the Linux community can be. On more than a few occasions my requests for help on forums were met with passive aggressiveness and hostility because I “should have known better” or something along those lines. The most recent example I can think of was someone asking me to post a debug log to troubleshoot an issue I had and I had to ask him where to find the log. He told me the folder it would be in but not the folder path to get there. When I asked again where to find the log, he just told me that “maybe Linux isn’t for you”.

I had almost exactly this same issue years ago when I tried Mint. I was trying to get something to work (I think install games on Steam? Something like that) and it would just do nothing, no message, etc. When I asked for help, I was told "This is super obvious" and after trying their suggestions and having them all fail, was told "just go back to windows."

Ok, done?

(It also doesn't help that there is a huge difference between 'you can use the terminal' and 'you have to use the terminal.' I'm an 80's kid, I grew up with DOS, so I understand how to navigate terminals, I just don't want to constantly.)

eronth ,

I've had similar experiences. Never posted questions myself, but I'll be Googling for help and find forum posts that are as toxic as you describe.

It's been bad enough that the Linux elitism on Lemmy leaves a bad taste, even if I haven't seen as much of the toxic parts here. I know I'm not the only person of my friends group that feels this way about Lemmy's Linux crowd.

Adderbox76 ,

I've been exclusively Linux for years, and all the crap now going on with AI and ads being shoved into literally everything makes me happier than ever with that decision.

But you're absolutely right. Linux is "it just works" in a relatively narrow use-case.

Just going on the internet to browse and play some Facebook games (my parents). It'll absolutely work out of the box.

Doing some light creative work (design, writing, etc...) No tinkering needed.

But from there it becomes a scale from "probably work fine" to "hours of work and extra repositories needed".

Video editing or 3D modelling with an NVIDIA card because CUDA, it SHOULD be easy to install, but there's a chance it won't be. You take your chances.

Gaming through proton? Single player games, yeah. I've literally had 95% work out of the box because Valve is awesome. But I don't play online multiplayer. If you need to play nice with anticheat software, good luck.

I too get frustrated with the fundamentalist Linux base who think its the right fit for everyone. Because it absolutely is not, and its okay to admit that because admitting that drives the motivation to improve it.

Suffocate9920 ,

I don't think Linux is for aging hardware. It just depends of your needs. Linux support all mainstream hardware, I guess. Never had any problems with something not working on Linux. I remember many years ago I had a scanner, which used to work only with Win XP or Vista because of outdated drivers. Windows 7 was too modern for it. I tried it with Linux and it worked. Now I have some random-hardware PC, everything works. It's Intel Core 11400 hardware, AMD RX-GPU, quite modern. I think problems could be on laptops with display backlight, sleep mode or something else. Desktop PC's should be good. Even if you have last-gen hardware, just use the latest kernel. I haven't heard about Linux build hardware. It used to be a thing for Hackintosh builds.

My previous company HP laptop worked better on Linux, it wasn't that hot all the time. Because Linux was consuming less system resources. My work: Browser + IDE. I had dual-boot Win10 and Ubuntu. Ended up with Windows because of Pulse Secure crap and some specific network restrictions. It was years back.

I remember I gave up with Ubuntu 5 years ago at home because after system update It just failed to boot. I didn't touch anything. I don't know if it's possible today. And Proton wasn't here and I wanted to play games. I remember I was using Lightroom, but for my very basic photographer needs Darktable works perfectly. And it's free!

All you need is basic troubleshooting skills. You need to google sometimes. I know that it could be an issue. Linux not for everyone. And it's fine. It's good to have a chose. Linux gives that choice.

InFerNo ,

To comment on the first paragraph, that is just a skill issue. Before I switched to Linux I was pretty adept at Windows, but some things are hard to figure out because it's hidden behind layers of bullshit. Running commands that obscure what exactly they're doing, just because some guy on some forum said it worked for him, is how you get around on Windows and that knowledge is something you build over many years. Knowing where specific settings are or what values to use takes time. The same counts for Linux. If you stick to it, that knowledge will come with experience.

Just remember the dism and sfc scannows, registry hacks etc the average Joe doesn't know about. Your learnt it, you didn't start using Windows with that knowledge. The same will happen with Linux.

ReveredOxygen ,
@ReveredOxygen@sh.itjust.works avatar

Windows just sucks at handling Bluetooth. It's ridiculous that you can't change audio codecs, or choose between handsfree and high quality audio. You have to let windows guess at both

Bitflip ,

Sounds like what happened when Windows 8 came out. Oops I meant Windows Vista. My bad, I'm thinking of Windows Me. Sorry, I might have it confused with NT 3. Everyone loved Windows 2.0 right?

weew ,

Every other version of Windows. It's practically a law of nature at this point.

ripcord , (edited )
@ripcord@lemmy.world avatar

Exception: 95 and 98

rigamarole ,

I agree, but we can't leave out Windows 7

raspberriesareyummy ,

98 Second Edition was 'da bomb at the time :) Much more stable than Win95, and not yet phoning home like XP. I get nostalgic seeing the splash screen.

After that, I switched to Win2K, as the last windows that did not phone home - and then straight to Linux, a decision I have never regretted and will never regret.

helpImTrappedOnline ,

Seems like they're on track to break the streak with Windows 12.

ArdMacha ,

XP was terrible until sp2 and in fact so insecure that people all over the world got infected by all kinds of shit.

InFerNo ,

People forgot or are too young to remember, but XP needed several "service packs" before it was good.

CraigeryTheKid ,

I'm one of the weirdos that like ME... sure, I reformatted a few times. But i liked it!

ILikeBoobies ,

8/8.1 were better than 7/10

mitrosus ,

Far better. Let the crowd shout. Win 8.1 was the last version enjoyable.

UnderpantsWeevil ,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

They hated him because he spoke the truth

jdeath ,

no, it was XP

shiftymccool ,

Candied Windows

TheRealKuni ,

If you had a touchscreen, 8 was great. I ran 8 on my Yoga and enjoyed it. But I must admit 8.1 was significantly better than 8.

And 10 was better than 8.1, so I mostly disagree with you.

But yeah, I really didn’t mind 8/8.1.

ILikeBoobies ,

10 didn’t have metro so it was a downgrade for kb + mouse

Even used this on browser

https://chromewebstore.google.com/detail/new-metrotab/oogmkbpkoblajkomflhkkdmbfggdmefd

Mio ,

How many % of these 70% can't upgrade to windows 11 due to hardware limitation?

accideath ,

Probably a fair share. The hardware requirements aren’t unreasonably high but a lot of people (like myself) are running hardware that is 10+ years old because why not? Still works fine, if you don’t need that much power.

Not that I’d run Win 11 anyways. Tried it, was a pretty but nonfunctional mess, downgraded to 10 at first and upgraded to Linux later.

JackbyDev ,

It's so wild how Windows boasts about backwards compatibility but doesn't support hardware from 2010. It's literally a fully functional 64 bit system but it doesn't have SecureBoot so it won't let me install 11.

Honytawk ,

That is because they are still required to improve their software, and that means sometimes cutting off a part of their support. Especially when it comes to security.

But hey, support for hardware that is 10 years old is unfortunately still way ahead of the competition, Mac can't hold a candle.

And you could still bypass the TPM requirement with some elbow grease.

JackbyDev ,

If I bypass the TPM requirement, will it break in the future?

accideath ,

Well, it‘s software bloatbackward compatibility, not for hardware.

And to be fair, that actually works quite well. Had a 20 y/o negative scanner driver that I could install relatively easily on windows 10. The first party macOS driver stopped working more than a decade ago (needs PowerPC compatibility) and the only modern third party driver software that gets it to work on Win, Mac and Linux costs 100€.

Rose ,

They absolutely are unreasonably high. My barely overclocked 6700K is sufficient for virtually every new or slightly older game I throw at it, but somehow it's not enough for the OS?

accideath ,

It’s absolutely supported if you have SucureBoot and TPM 2.0 support. Sure, it’s not on the official support list but that’s probably because those features weren’t standard yet in that generation and it’s not tested and verified. It’ll still work fine though.

Also, performance is not everything. Support for certain instruction sets is usually the problem, when newer operating systems drop support for older chips. Of course that’s not it in this case, Skylake and Coffeelake are essentially identical and the latter does have official support.

JohnEdwa ,
@JohnEdwa@sopuli.xyz avatar

It's not about the speed - the minimum requirements for Win 11 are a 1Ghz dual-core processor and 4GB of RAM- it's because of the processor generation.
Not sure if there's been an official explanation, but the going consensus is that they aren't going to officially support almost anything that is susceptible to Meltdown or Spectre.
That doesn't mean Win 11 doesn't work or couldn't be installed on that hardware, they just don't officially support it.

Rose ,

There are already precedents of software (the Riot games) and the OS itself refusing to work if the requirements are bypassed, so it's a very risky move that nobody should choose for their main OS.

Moorshou ,
@Moorshou@lemmy.zip avatar

Do note that POPCNT instruction is required.

If you were to install windows 11 on some Intel core 2 Duo's

-Linux mint user

JohnEdwa ,
@JohnEdwa@sopuli.xyz avatar

SSE4.2 specifically, POPCNT is part of that. It was introduced in 2008, while the previous requirement for Win 10, Win 8, and in Win 7 after a 2018 update has been SSE2 from 2000.
So Windows 11 bumps the oldest hardware requirement from 18 years up when introduces to 16/17 years.

FWIW, I believe from Linux Mint 20 onward it doesn't have 32-bit builds so it isn't compatible with processors that don't support x86-64, and the first Intel processor to support that is from 2004.

JackbyDev ,

I'm in this boat. My current setup's motherboard is from just before TPM and SecureBoot were around.

almost1337 ,

Likewise

xapr ,

Plus one.

kaffiene ,

That's me. I have a pretty decent computer but it can't run win11. Ill be buggered if I'm getting a new PC just to make win11 run

Lemonparty ,

Mine can run it but requires reinstalling my entire OS because something in the bios wasn't enabled before it was installed. I mean...okay that's certainly a design choice but I'm 100% not doing that

LifeInMultipleChoice ,

Likely the TPM chip. It is required for Windows Hello, Bitlocker, and a few other things to enhance security. Works much like a RSA token, if the code from the chip doesn't match the code on the hard drive it assumes tampering and will lock entry. The encrypted drive (Bitlocker) or the OS will require the Bitlocker recovery key to boot the OS (Decrypt the drive) and the password instead of the Face ID/ PIN/fingerprint you used to make access quicker. Most devices didn't have TPM 2.0 till recently, which is the version used by Windows 11 I believe.

If you don't encrypt said drive or attach the Microsoft accounts as they recommend anyone can grab the drive, reset the account password or just pull all your files from the drive from another OS. It's all forced security because the views/legal responsibility keeps looking at the companies to produce the products and blaming them for not securing their users instead of the users securing themselves.

Lemonparty ,

I don't think it would matter what it was, I'm not doing an entire OS reinstall to "upgrade" to an inferior experience. If it can't apply the update itself, it's not going on until it absolutely has to, and even then it's looking more likely to be Linux next boot install.

soggy_kitty ,

I built my PC 2 years ago with brand new parts (at that time) but still have hardware limitation message lol

jonasw ,

How lol? What does it complain about?

soggy_kitty ,

It doesn't give me any details but tbh I'm in no rush to diagnose it. If it means it won't ever try to auto update itself I'm in the best position I can be

MystikIncarnate ,

I work with Windows as a requirement of my job, I'm in IT and I'm constantly in and out of the bowels of the operating system. I have a lot of thoughts on this stuff.

My first thought is, stop moving everything around. Even in Windows 10, if you're using an older version, say 1804, and you switch to a newer version, say 22H2, stuff is moved all over the place. It makes it super hard to direct someone blindly to the control they need to click to get something done. You're making my job much harder than it needs to be. Stop it. There's no reason to move this crap around.

To bring out my grumpy old man routine: back in my day, if you wanted to do anything, you went to the control panel. Everything you needed was there. Now it's in settings, no wait, clicking on this settings option for that thing now launches an appx thing that, surprisingly (/s) is broken.

Too many damn times have I tried to open their damned settings app or the new defender security appx dialog simply crashes. The solution is almost always dkim online repair. Well, if it needs repair so damn much, how about you just repair it for me as part of system maintenance? The fuck.

Windows 11 is a special form of suffering. Right clicking on a file and.... What the fuck is this? I basically click on "more settings" every time I right click. And the changes to the settings application.... Don't get me started.

Also, why in the fuck do we have copilot installed by default now? You're an operating system, stay in your goddamned lane.

The only good thing I can say about Windows 11 is that it has really good security. So good that I frequently have trouble doing routine things. Today, I was trying to run a PowerShell script and it told me some bullshit error, which is pretty common for PowerShell. After googling the error, the recommendation was to change the execution policy. I went to do that at an administrative PowerShell prompt and it told me that I didn't have access to change it. While running as the administrator. Yay. Shit is broken again. Fuck me I guess. I'm off to unfuck my less than five month old new work system because Microsoft can't get their shit straight.

Customization options do not and cannot help me. 90% of the time I'm working on someone else's computer, so I have to fucking deal with the default behavior because I'm not going to change it for 500+ users whom I support. I'm pretty sure I'd get more than a few complaints. So I have to fucking deal with whatever hairbrained decision Microsoft made about what should be default.

Windows 10 had its own share of bullshit. One of my most common annoyances was the way the OS decided to install fucking candy crush, every fucking time a new user logged into the goddamned computer. It's like playing whack-a-mole, but not fun and filled with uninstalls. I hope Microsoft made some good money on that brand deal, because I sure paid for it with my frustration.

After all of this, I keep finding myself in the fucking registry, and thank God that's one thing that hasn't been fucked over by their new UI team. I keep having to fix dumb issues by injecting registry keys so I can not deal with the stupid UI all the goddamned time. It's hacky, and I'm happier for it.

I could keep going. Pretty much every decision they've made in the past 5 years has been some measure of bad. The only thing I've agreed with them doing is finally ending internet explorer. Begrudgingly, edge is better, but not by a lot, IMO.

The last thing I'll say is that the tpm bullshit is going to give me an aneurysm. Having a TPM at Windows install usually prompts the system to activate bitlocker. Bitlocker itself isn't bad, but it's fucking terrible when windows does this shit and doesn't really inform the user about it. Nobody knows that they need to back up their goddamned bitlocker recovery keys, so inevitably, when something goes wrong (we're talking about Windows here, something will go wrong) and the system stops booting, you need the fucking bitlocker recovery key to do anything. Your option, if you can call it that, if you can't get the recovery key, is to format all of your shit, and reinstall from scratch. I know several people who have lost a lot of work and irreplaceable files, like pictures, because bitlocker fucked them over and they had no idea it was even running.

Sorry about your loss, but all those family photos you saved that don't exist anywhere else are locked behind basically uncrackable encryption, get fucked, I guess.

I'm going to cut this rant off. Needless to say I'm pretty tired of Microsoft's bullshit. Make an operating system. That's what people want. That's it. We shouldn't need "debloat" scripts to fix your nonsense. Gah.

SilverFlame ,

I recently had to reinstall windows on a coworker's laptop because it wouldn't boot (hard drive is probably failing). I couldn't even format the drive because bitlocker was bit locking and the only way to turn it off is through the control panel (again, PC would not boot). I ended up having to delete the entire partition so I could reformat and install.

MystikIncarnate ,

I usually do that anyways. As soon as it's like, "which partition do you want to install to?" I'm like, nope! And delete all the partitions. Just install to the drive.

The windows installer is so retarded with this kind of thing that I make it basically impossible to do wrong. If I have another drive in the system, I unplug it before I install windows, then plug it back in after windows is installed. I want it to see one drive and only one drive and I want it to install to that drive and nothing else. Not a partition, not a specific location, just the drive.

PresidentCamacho ,

This 100%

Windows is in a permanent state of shitification, it feels to be like they have sales driving development. Every year Windows applications make more and more stupid fucking decisions with how stuff functions. You can't target a specific folder to save a word doc without 5 clicks to get to the fucking file explorer. You now left click to fix spelling instead of right click in outlook. None of this shit makes sense. They keep fucking around with how stuff operates for seemingly no rhyme or reason and all it's doing is pissing off seasoned users. I know the devs aren't this fucking brain dead which is how I get to "sales must be driving" mentality. Because sales people tend the be the worst fucking people to make decisions on shit,they're good at charming people, they should stick to that.

MystikIncarnate ,

Agreed.

I could not give any fucks if they want to cram this shit into the crap home version. I don't use it and anyone who does, probably would rather have a more inexpensive version that's been subsidized by all the crap they've piled into the OS. Sure. Whatever.

But this crap is present in the professional, and enterprise versions, this shit still persists. Like, these are versions that are twice or three times as expensive and still, full of shit; just as bad as the cheap home version.

Unacceptable.

The constant stupid UI changes are just icing on this shit filled cake. Why are we moving everything around? Sure, you want to create a less "ugly" control panel, ok that's fine, but why the fuck did you make it borderline impossible to do something as simple as change your network IP address? I don't even try anymore, I just go find the og control panel and load up network and sharing center or something. If you're going to change it, at least make it as functional as the old one, or don't fucking do it at all.

InformalTrifle ,

I went back from Windows 11 to Windows 10 as 11 was too buggy on my system (maybe because I bypassed some checks for TPM because my motherboard was too old).

I cannot understand at all this move from control panel to settings thats half baked in 10 and presumably even worse in 11. It’s not an improvement and makes things difficult to find

MystikIncarnate ,

The only improvement I can find with the windows 11 settings is account administration. Linking to a Microsoft account or adding authentication methods or something, is pretty decent. Everything else, just makes me want to tear my head off of my body and throw it across the room.

Kevnyon ,
@Kevnyon@lemmy.world avatar

I'm gonna upgrade my setup at some point, so thanks for this. I didn't realize they had some bullshit like bitlocker in there, definitely going to disable that because I cannot lose some files.

MystikIncarnate ,

I try to speak the gospel of backing up your bitlocker recovery key to anyone who will listen without their eyes glazing over.

You can turn it off, if you're okay with going without encryption; if it's a mobile computer, like a laptop or something, encryption is a good idea, so just back up the key in a safe place, even just emailing it to yourself and you're all set.

The bullshit is that the bitlocker dialog won't save a file that contains your recovery key, to the drive that's encrypted; my recommendation is to "print" it to a PDF, which you can save anywhere you want. Once you have it, attach it to an email and send it to yourself, or toss it in your Google drive or whatever.

Full disk encryption is, IMO, a great thing to have, but to rugpull people by just enabling it and not giving them the information to secure access to their data, or even really inform them that it's on, is complete fucking horse shit.

Kevnyon ,
@Kevnyon@lemmy.world avatar

I don't know how much I'll need it on a desktop that's strictly used by me, but I see your point nevertheless. The fact that its turned on by default without user knowledge and that the key is not automatically safely accessible is... That is a whole other level of dogshit, that's just insane honestly. I'd definitely save it to drive and a stick to be sure, that's a good one.

MystikIncarnate ,

I agree, there's pretty limited usefulness to keep it enabled on a desktop. Unless you're at risk of someone walking off with it, like your desktop is in a fairly public area, or you live in an area where robberies/burglaries are not rare, I don't know that there's much value in it. You also have to think about what data you're realistically keeping on your PC. Is it something that if that were to become public information, would that be a problem?

Like, if you have pictures of yourself in blackface or nudes or something, maybe think about it... But if you're just using your PC to play games and browse the web, it's probably not very important to encrypt it. Even if someone takes it and looks through all your data, they probably won't find anything of value (to someone else) beyond whatever money they can get for the hardware.

It's a very personal choice, and with higher risk devices like laptops, I would say, just turn on the FDE, back up the recovery keys and forget about it. Desktops, meh. Up to you.

KrapKake ,

I very much enjoyed your rant. Would subscribe.

K0W4LSK1 ,
@K0W4LSK1@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Idk if you love or hate windows but I hope your job switches to linux for your sanity lol I would be going crazy. Just reading your rant gave me anxiety

MystikIncarnate ,

I appreciate that. I don't think my users would tolerate Linux. Maybe MacOS, but I would quit if that happened.

Windows has some very terrible traits, but it's something I've worked with and on for the last ~20 years. I see all the warts. I have no delusions about it, but it's something I know extremely well as a result.

perdvert ,

I like how the settings for daylight savings just fucking disappeared on my kid's laptop and I had to edit the registry to get the setting to show up and correct the time.

MystikIncarnate ,

Oh. I have one for this. I support people from several timezones, so to help myself, I set up a couple of additional clocks in Windows, so I could keep track of what time it is for the user, since most people are bad at thinking outside of their local timezone.

Well, I'm in a timezone that uses DST, and when it started for my timezone this year, all of my clocks changed. Every last one of them are now wrong, since the actual timezones they are for don't do DST.

Gg windows.

foggy ,

Execs: what can we do?!

Jim from marketing: We could throw ads into windows 11... That'll get em flocking! People love ads!

ArtVandelay ,
@ArtVandelay@lemmy.world avatar

More AI in the start menu!

foggy ,

Execs: Holy shit. Give him a raise.

Lay off everyone else while you're at it.

RagingSnarkasm ,

Hang on a sec, this isn’t Google!

Plopp ,

Speaking of, let's see if we can get that Prabhakar Raghavan guy, he seems to know what he's doing.

lemmytellyousomething ,

With that attitude, you'll never work in marketing...

REPLACING the start menu with AI is the way to go!!!!111

xavier666 ,
@xavier666@lemm.ee avatar

Ads will continue till the users fall in love with ads

JigglypuffSeenFromAbove ,
@JigglypuffSeenFromAbove@lemmy.world avatar

In my company they legitimately try to convince us that our users love ads.

I conducted user research on one of our websites, which showed complaints about the amount of ad placements we have been throwing at them. The execs responded by telling me "but we are actually HELPING them, we're showing them products that will improve their productivity and processes". Then, they came up with ideas for new ways we can place MORE ads on top of the ones already there. I'm sure our users are loving it!

Starkstruck ,

Good god that's actually insane. Corpos have completely lost it.

JJROKCZ ,

It’s more like the execs know that ad revenue is a significant chunk of the revenue stream and cost very little to implement so they’ll keep growing that until it starts measurably impacting other revenue centers in the org

yamanii ,
@yamanii@lemmy.world avatar

Where is the research part of "marketing research"? lol

AeroLemming ,

You should tell them that if users love ads so much, you should add a slider to let people control how many ads they get. Surely they'll only increase the ad count, right?

SuperSpruce ,

On a related note, YouTube just gave me a pop-up advertising premium again, only this time the cancel button was "No, I like ads."

I was gonna sit back and watch an hour of YT (with ads) but that pop-up rubbed me the wrong way and I didn't watch anything so that I might skew the A/B test in favor of no dark patterns.

pfr ,
@pfr@lemmy.sdf.org avatar

The solution will be for have developers to fully support Linux. I'd date to say they the majority of people still using windows are doing so because they're gamers. While Linux has done what it can to support gaming, it's now up to the game Devs to build games that run on Linux

balder1991 ,

Except that if Windows 11 market-share is bad, Linux on the desktop is even worse.

vinyl ,

Alright i hope you can figure out that solution because of the shit show that is the linux development community.

FrostKing ,

Recently built a new PC and clean installed Nobara Linux. It's so much... Better. In every way, except for compatibility—and even that's not close to as bad as people say it is. Granted, I had used mostly open source programs before (still quite disappointed that Playnite isn't available on Linux, I do miss that) but I'm using mostly the same software. The pre-done compatibility fixes etc. that the Nobara team has done (huge props to them!) has made it far easier than i even expected. It really is getting to the point that I want a major laptop/PC manufacturer to ship with a polished, user friendly Linux distro, and get the ball rolling.

btaf45 ,

It really is getting to the point that I want a major laptop/PC manufacturer to ship with a polished, user friendly Linux distro, and get the ball rolling.

Chromebooks are sort of like that. They are very user friendly and allow you to access Linux shells. The only problem is that you can't get root access without developer mode.

FrostKing ,

I forgot about Chromebooks—granted, I don't really think of those as what I mean. I don't generally think that "user friendly = restricted and less control", though I'm sure others would disagree. I don't think of Chromebooks as real mainstream Linux.

Oh, and the steam deck has done this I believe, though I don't own one so I don't know how restricted that is either.

rikonium ,

They pivoted from serving the user to serving themselves. I still don't know what big improvements have been made to 11 other than another coat of paint, some LLM features searching for a problem and the odd feature like that Android subsystem that's being cancelled. Modern Standby is still being pushed which would rule out most new Windows laptops for me.

It's not like I want something revolutionary, just a number of quality of life things would be nice without feeling like I'm fighting the machine. If I could search images on my machine with OCR like iOS Photos I would be over the moon but noone's seemed to want to copy that.

FiniteBanjo ,

If anybody is planning to dig their own mass grave then I recommend Windows 10 LTSC Enterprise. Notice it comes in two flavors: vanilla or IoT, I don't think IoT should be used unless you actually need it because it can be less secure.

That aside, Linux is cool. Maybe try out some of the new distros before committing to yar-har-dery.

carlytm ,
@carlytm@lemm.ee avatar

IoT is supported until January 2032, while standard LTSC is only supported until January 2027, which only, like, an extra year or so of support over regular Windows 10. I've never heard anything about IoT being less secure but I'm far from being an expert lol.

FiniteBanjo ,

That's fair, but in general I don't think windows is much of a long term option. The main reason IoT has more vulnerabilities is that it has more endpoints, so if you properly secure everything with credential you should in theory have no problems, but it's statistically much much more vulnerable.

normalexit ,

I would much rather pay for windows than become the product with ads, AI, and analytics.

Luckily this is coming at a time where I can run nearly everything on Linux that I previously needed Windows for (with the exception of a handful of games in my steam library)

MakePorkGreatAgain ,

win11 is hot trash. seems like every other windows release is a skip. did Ballmer enshrine that or was it Gates?

psycho_driver ,

Hmm well . . .

Windows 95 - revolutionary UI changes for its time

Windows 98 - hot garbage update

Windows 98SE - fixed hot garbage and was ok

Windows ME - hot garbage

Windows XP - Windows 95 for grown ups

Windows 7 - This is where it breaks down, since from what I hear 7 was actually pretty good (been a linux user since the ME days) - but if you're counting Windows XP was Windows 5 so maybe they worked on 6 and just didn't release it to break the curse

Windows 8 - Everybody should have just moved to linux at this point

Windows 10 - Who knows. You should have been using linux

Windows 11 - If you're not using linux now you shouldn't have a computer

Kr4u7 ,

Yeah but u missed vista between xp and 7 so it works out

psycho_driver ,

Oh shit you're right, and Vista was a giant turd sandwich.

MakePorkGreatAgain ,

it was so bad. didnt help that it had higher hardware requirements than win7, and we didnt really have affordable ssd's then so everything was so slow - or, that's what my memory says, I havent used a spinner disk in a long time.

Evilcoleslaw ,

It wasn't so much the lack of SSDs. Vista had much higher memory requirements than XP. At the time, OEMs were still regularly shipping systems with sub-1GB RAM installed. Those OEMs put pressure on Microsoft to change the Vista- Ready certification requirements to include their shitty builds that couldn't really run Vista.

In addition, dual core machines were only just coming to market, so there were a ton of systems with single core CPUs. Plus, with the changes to several driver models and some of the verification requirements (sound, graphics, needing to provide x64 drivers to get verified) from XP to Vista many vendors decided to EOL their products instead of write new drivers. I know many sound cards were EOL that were literally still on store shelves.

hollyberries ,

You forgot Vista before 7. The list didn't "break down" because Vista was the steaming pile of shit in between.

8 sucked, 8.1 was good at least in my opinion. 10 was when I fucked off to Linux land permanently after using it on and off for 15 years and have never been happier.

MakePorkGreatAgain ,

yeah 8.1 wasnt that bad (supported it, didnt use it), 10 was way better than 8.1 imho. thinking win10 is going to be my last win though.

hollyberries ,

I admit that I am a bit biased. During the 8-10 years I tanked my startup by going all-in on Microsoft Store apps because I absolutely loved my Windows Phones and was convinced that they were the future, especially when Continuum was announced (and it actually worked!).

The disenchantment started when Microsoft forced developers to rewrite their apps for Windows 10 after already having forced the mobile devs to do it from 7 to 8. The hatred ramped up when they killed support for the Lumia 950XL 6 months after launch. I freaking loved that phone.

It pissed me off so much that I went to Apple lmao talk about cutting off my nose to spite my face.

Khanzarate ,

You forgot Vista between XP and 7, and it wasn't great, so the pattern holds up remarkably well.

8 felt like a mobile OS, because it was.

10 is OK. Not as good as 7, broke support for a bunch of things, really amped up the spyware feeling, but it works OK.

Then 11.

Probably still can have a computer though, it's just not fully yours on 11.

jqubed ,
@jqubed@lemmy.world avatar

I feel like Windows 7 was peak Windows. I have an old machine I still turn on sometimes with 7 but it just seems so much better than 10/11.

JovialSodium ,

"Peak Windows" is a fun one to ponder. I'd probably pick XP for fairly high reliability and fairly low bloat. Or 2000 if taking business oriented versions in to consideration.

jqubed ,
@jqubed@lemmy.world avatar

2000 was a great one; we ran it on most of our home computers at the time. I’d say it was my second favorite.

oo1 ,

widdows 2000 was the pinnacle for me, beat XP until i wanted to go to 64 bit.

Apart from having 64-bit, XP was a step back; even if I don't count the fucking dog thing.
XP was a fair bit harder to de-bloat than win 2000 and they were hell-bent on forcing internet exploder on the world.

XP was also at a time when Linux was becoming pretty easily usable and mac osx was impressive too - I remember using those imac coloured egg things at university in 2000. They were good apart from the mouse, and ran MS office pretty well.
StarOffice was already better than MS-Word at dealing with .doc format across versions.
and ancient version of Wordperfect were miles better for WP anyway ("reveal codes").

windows XP was already down to gaming, adobe and CAD/other specialist apps, plus maybe MS Excel that just weren't as good or not available on linux.

Cold_Brew_Enema ,

DAE WINDOWS LITERALLY HITLER?!?!?

Vraylle , (edited )
@Vraylle@lemmy.sdf.org avatar

I've been using Windows since version 3.1. My rig isn't cutting edge but is still plenty good, so naturally it isn't supported for an upgrade to 11. The AI spyware in 11 is just another reason not to switch to it even if I could. Once 10 hits end of life, I'm putting Mint on it.

fpslem ,

Same, although I may not wait that long, I'm looking at a new PC build and I can't justify a Windows OS nowadays, particularly since Steam on LInux is working relatively well for the (admittedly modest) games I like to play.

eronth ,

Win 11 has a bunch of new small frustrations without anything crazy good that makes me want to recommend it over 10. It's... Just really unclear what benefits I'm actually getting from 11.

CileTheSane ,
@CileTheSane@lemmy.ca avatar

Just really unclear what benefits I'm actually getting from 11.

Better access to ads and improved data gathering!

Oh wait, you're looking for benefits for the user? Umm... Security updates that will protect you from the vulnerability in Windows 10 that will get leaked as soon as it is no longer supported.

xapr ,

I think this is the best assessment I've read yet of Windows 11. I just switched the OS on my work computer with a fresh install of Windows 11 and have run into a handful of issues and frustrations. This thing has been out for like 3 years now. It shouldn't still be this problematic. I may end up switching to a long-term support version of Windows 10 that goes to 2027 or 2029. Unfortunately that's only available for Enterprise editions, so I can't do the same at home. I'm soon going to be dual- and triple-booting Linux at home.

Killer ,

You could still get ltsc at home, just use massgrave to activate it, microsoft support has been caught using it.

xapr ,

Hadn't heard of it before. Thanks.

odelik ,

There's one feature that win11 has over win10 that I wish was there, and that's the default layout manager is superior to windows 10's, and less fidgety and better hotkeys than what's offered with Power Toys. Especially vertical monitor support, which win10s layout manager never got an update for. And as a Tie-Fighter monitor setup user (4k portrait, WQHD landscape, 4k portrait) having an effective layout manager is crucial.

However, there's 3rdParty layout managers that are even better than the win11 implementation. Butt to be able to get the default support of an effective layout manager is quite nice.

That said, that's the only feature I really like aside from some nominal improvements/optimizations to background systems (network stack, Bluetooth management, "game mode") and services. That's not enough for me to transition when there's so many other things that were done to make it a worse experince.

I'm excited to transition my personal desktop to PopOS once win10 reaches EoL. Maybe Valve will drop their latest SteamOS in time for the Win10 EoL hoping to attract all those gamers on non-TPM 2.0 supported systems that are still great gaming rigs. I know if at least give it a go.

Psythik ,

If you have an HDR monitor, then 11 is worth upgrading to. AutoHDR makes things so easy; it just works. No need to even bother with calibrating anything; no need to worry about switching it off when going back to SDR content, either. All you gotta do is flip the "Use HDR" switch, set HDR tone mapping to "Auto" on your monitor, and then forget about it. That's it, couldn't be easier.

Meanwhile in 10, I have to turn off HDR every time I go back to SDR content, and in KDE, HDR doesn't even work properly yet on my LG C1. Neither issue exists in 11. HDR just works.

Infernal_pizza ,
@Infernal_pizza@lemmy.world avatar

I’ve got Windows 11 on my work laptop and the only 2 benefits I’ve seen are notepad now has tabs and auto save, and snipping tool can now record videos. On the downsides the new start menu is so shit I only ever use it for search now, which is also shit (it frequently misses the first few letters when I press the windows key and start typing), and the new right click menu is annoying.

LostWanderer ,

Microsoft's own incompetence has made Windows 11 a failure. The system requirements really made it a flop (possibly an intentional part of their plan to boost hardware sales but create a ton of e-waste as a result). I'm running Windows 11 as my PC meets the specs, it's not a bad OS persay as it works for my day to day needs. However, if I didn't game on PC I would probably switch completely to Linux. I stay on Windows as it is for the time being convenient to do so. If the next version of Windows has a dire increase in regards to specifications...I would likely go back to Ubuntu!

JovialSodium ,

You should check protondb and see if your games of choice are supported, if you've not done so already.

I completely jumped ship from Windows the better part of a year ago now and haven't encountered a single game that didn't run, at the least, reasonably well. And usually just fine OOB. Though ymmv of course.

LostWanderer ,

It's a big YMMV experience with Linux, it just boiled down to mental load in comparison to Windows; Remembering all manner of commands and how to do certain things, along with that subset of hostile Linux users on help forums has made it an OS that I will use only in a dire situation. Linux is mostly for those who aren't afraid to tinker with the OS and have time to figure out what the hell is wrong with their PC in case of a strange situation occurring. Ubuntu worked really well for me for years (except the times it didn't, and I Googled my way to a solution each time). I did miss the ease of installing games and just having them work without extra steps (a common issue for most games). I also expanded my console games library so that the game variety is not lacking.

Windows is admittedly easier to maintain, and I never have any encountered any major concerns since the Windows 7 days and once while on Windows 10. As far as compatibility goes, I know most of my Steam and GOG libraries are compatible with Linux, since I've a tendency to buy games which are supported on Linux. I made sure to give myself a decent library as a result in case Microsoft screwed the pooch enough that I needed to go back to a Linux distro.

SuperSpruce ,

And even on hardware that does theoretically support Windows 11, budget hardware will make the most basic of tasks take forever and lower midrange hardware will feel slow. On most Linux distros and ChromeOS, budget hardware will feel slow (mostly due to bloated websites), and lower midrange hardware will feel quite snappy for the most part.

Hotzilla ,

One very important detail missing here is that Windows 10 is going to be end-of-support in 2025. You won't get security updates.

It is going to be shitshow.

orl0pl ,

2025 is going to be the biggest year of Linux

JustARegularNerd ,

I think there'll be some users but honestly? I think you'll have three general kinds of users. Those that just bite the bullet and upgrade to 11, those that don't care and will continue to use Win10 for more years to come, and the minority that care enough to try this "Linux thing" out.

J4g2F ,
@J4g2F@lemmy.ml avatar

2025 is going be the year of cheap hardware. A lot of people will just buy new computers/laptop's.

I'm helping some people already with setting up Linux. But most average users will not set up Linux. It's just to scary.

Drummyralf ,

Yes, I think a minority group of IT enthousiasts will be pushed towards Linux. But for a lot of average users, it is way too much of a hassle, unless the ONLY thing they do is browse the web.

In my 4 weeks with Mint, I encountered:
-Complete system freezes from plugging in USB to USB hubs.
-Bluetooth not working (fix was updating to a newer Kernel... ok... why is that kernel not standard when bluetooth is broken on the older kernels?)
-Random inconsistant UI scaling issues when working with two monitors (and even on the same monitor)
-permission issues when instaling flatpacks from the software manager (let's disable USB permission for arduino... yeah... that's silly)

I figure all the shit out because I want it to work. But it's not the be-all end-all that people here on Lemmy make it out to be.

Switching an OS is always difficult. In 2006 I switched to Mac for about 6 years. The first few months were pain and agony. After that, it was great. Same with many Windows upgrades. And the same will be true for switching to Linux.

timbuck2themoon ,

It's not going to be a shitshow at all. Business will mostly move to 11 whether they like it or not and consumers will just use unpatched win10. The exact same way they did with XP and the exact same way they did with 7.

It's only gonna be a shitshow if there is some earth shattering vulnerability found that a worm can exploit and even then MS would probably just push out an out of band update.

This is honestly going to be a "nothingburger."

Hotzilla ,

I have lived the time when unpatched windows was the norm. Oh the network worms which roamed freely and created huge bot nets. Sad that Microsoft has forgotten that.

Chadus_Maximus ,

Not if we all keep using it as a form of protest.

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