As a "creator" myself, I'd like to say to my fellow artists who are anit-AI, get over it. AI artists are artists too. Yes there is bad AI art, but there's bad art in every medium. If done with care and skill, AI art can be completely awesome and if you have an open mind, you might even find some space for it in your work. But even if you don't, have some respect for the AI artists out there who put time and effort into their craft. There's room for everyone.
Exactly, and if you are a trained artist, you can mop the floor with someone who only use prompts. I've been using the diffusion plugin for Krita and it is so powerful. You have the ability to paint, use layers and filters and near real-time AI fills. It's awesome and fun.
But even if you don’t, have some respect for the AI artists out there who put time and effort into their craft.
What kind of time and effort? How is AI art a skill that is comparable to real art? I am genuinely asking here, I'd like to understand your work process.
I am not a visual artist, but I have composed my own music and the amount of time and/or effort needed to create a comparable piece using generative AI is not even close to being the same. I think there is a place for AI tools that assist artists, but people generating entire pieces using AI and then referring to themselves as "artists" is honestly delusional and sad. I hope that's not what you are referring to here.
Not OP but familiar enough with open source diffusion image generators to be able to chime in.
Now I'd argue that being an artist comes down to being able to envision something in your mind's eye and then reproduce it in the real world using some medium, whether it's a graphite pencil, oil paint, a block of marble, Wacom tablet on a pc, or even through a negotiation with an AI model. Your definition might be different, but for the sake of conversation this is how I'm thinking about it.
The work flow for an AI generated image can have a few steps before feeling like it sufficiently aligns with your vision. Prompting for specific details can be tricky, so usually step 1 is to generate the basic outline of the image you're after. Depending on your GPU or cloud service, this could take several minutes or hours before you get a basis that you can work with. Once you have the basic image, you can then use inpainting tools to mask specific areas of the image and change specific details, colors, etc. This again can take many many generations before you land on something that sufficiently matches your vision.
This is all also after you go through the process of reviewing and selecting one of the hundreds of models that have been trained specifically for different types of output. Want to generate anime-style art? There's a model for that, want something great at landscapes? There's a different one for that. Surely you can use an all-purpose model for everything, but some models simply don't have the training to align to your vision, so you either choose to live with 'close enough' or you start downloading new options, comparing them with your existing work flow, etc.
There's certainly skill associated with the current state of image generation. Perhaps not the same level of practice you need to perfectly represent a transparent veil in graphite, but as with other formats I have a hard time suggesting that when someone represents their vision in the real world that it's automatically "not art".
So if I walked into a restaurant that specialized in a certain cuisine (choosing the right one out of hundreds is a skill, right?) and wrote down a list of ingredients, and the restaurant made me a meal with those ingredients according to however the restaurant functions (nobody can see into the kitchen, after all), does this make me a chef?
Is there any chance you're at a kbbq or hotpot restaurant? Because then you get to cook the meal yourself, which is arguably chef-like.
Jokes aside, I see the comparison you're making and it's not a bad one. I'd counter by giving the example of a menu - when you get to a restaurant you're given a menu with text descriptions of the food you can receive from the kitchen. Since this is an analogy and not an exact comparison, let's say that a meal on the menu is like the starting point of the workflow I described.
Based on that you have an idea of what the output will be when you order - but let's say you don't like mushrooms and you prefer your sauce on the side. When you make your order you provide those modifications - this is like inpainting.
Certainly you're not a 'chef', but if the dish you design is both bespoke and previously unimaginable, I'd argue that at the very least you contributed to the creative process and participated in creating something new that matches your internal vision.
Not exactly the same but I don't think it's entirely different.
You keep using the word "vision", but I have a hard time understanding how an AI artist has a vision equivalent to that of a traditional artist based on the explanation you've provided. It still sounds they are just cycling through AI generated options until they find something they like/that looks good. That is not the same as seeing something in your mind and then manually recreating that to the best of your ability.
Is a photographer an artist? They need to have some technical skill to capture sharp photos with good lighting, but a lot of the process is designing a scene and later selecting among the photos from a shoot for which one had the right look.
Or to step even further from the actual act of creation, is a creative director an artist? There's certainly some skill involved in designing and recognizing a compelling image, even if you were not the one who actually produced it.
You're sort of stepping around the issue here. Are you confirming that AI art is about cycling through options blind until you stumble across something you like?
No, both of those examples involve both design and selection, which is reminiscent to the AI art process. They're not just typing in "make me a pretty image" and then refreshing a lot.
It isn't. People design a scene and then change and refine the prompt to add elements. Some part of it could be refreshing the same prompt, but that's just like a photographer taking multiple photos of a scene they've directed to catch the right flutter of hair or a dress or a creative director saying "give me three versions of X".
Go back and read discussions about synthesisers when they first arrived on the scene and you will see much wailing and gnashing of teeth about how synths are not real instruments and etc and so on. Then do the same thing when hip-hop goes mainstream and people say it's not "real" music because the musicians don't perform with "real" instruments, I guess.
You see where I'm going with this? There's lots of examples like these in music and visual arts and they nearly always stem from ignorance.
I don't know anything about AI music generation, but visual art can be generated by AI models on local machines with a great amount of fine tuning and depth. Further, people feed their original artwork into the AI and manipulate that, so it's not so cut and dry. This idea that folks just write a sentence and the computer barfs out an image is uninformed.
No, I'm sorry but those are terrible examples. Synthesisers still require full creative control and an understanding of sound production techniques to create a custom sound. Some musicians rely on presets and samples, but even then they still need to be capable of actually composing a piece of music. Also, the debate was largely about whether synthesisers could be considered real instruments, not whether the music created by synthesisers was real music. The Hip Hop comparison is completely irrelevant and an even worse attempt at conflating genuine criticism of AI "musicians" with "old people are just mad".
I don't know anything about AI music generation
It's literally just prompts AFAIK, so the people making it don't require any musical talent, ability or creativity. They are just asking someone/something else to make them music that has a certain sound. It's the equivalent of a monarch commissioning a piece of work from their court musician and then claiming they are a musician too.
visual art can be generated by AI models on local machines with a great amount of fine tuning and depth.
Are there specific pieces of AI art software people use? Any popular ones you can recommended to help me understand the process better?
Maybe someday you'll do some research into the history of art and music and get some context into how technology has influenced both and the repeating patterns of the reactionary art that tends to get produced by artists you've never heard of when that happens.
Err, you admitted yourself that you are absolutely clueless when it comes to AI music generation. So yes, your "point" was a bad one and clearly came from a place of complete ignorance.
AI art can require training a model, or a LORA for a model, which requires choosing a series of samples and annotating them for the parts of you want to incorporate. After that, writing a prompt can involve several paragraphs with the definitions of what you want it to output, with a series of iterations, followed by a personal choice of the output.
How is AI art a skill that is comparable to real art?
How is stacking 10 buckets of sand and letting them fall in an art gallery, comparable to real art? Dunno, but they call it that: "real art".
Art is a communication act that requires some sort of vision, intended to elicit some sort of emotional response in the receiver, and a series of steps to achieve that.
As long as there is a vision and an intent, the series of steps required to create art with AI, are comparable to any other series of steps conducting to the creation of art with any other medium.
For a rough estimate, you can compare the number and difficulty of the steps, and the effectiveness of the communication.
people generating entire pieces using AI and then referring to themselves as "artists" is honestly delusional and sad
Let me refer you to the aforementioned sand bucket... sculpture? or the renowned orchestral piece "A minute of silence", or paintings like "Black square", or more performative pieces like "Banana duct taped to a wall".
How is stacking 10 buckets of sand and letting them fall in an art gallery, comparable to real art? Dunno, but they call it that: “real art”.
Your insinuation here was that AI art is "real art" because someone once stacked 10 buckets of sand and called it "real art". It comes across as pretty desperate that you relied on a comparison with something as questionable as this to argue that AI art is the equivalent of traditional art. As you said, there will always be artists and "artists". Sounds like AI "artists" fit in quite well with the latter group.
Let me clarify: I've seen the sand bucket guy's art featured twice on the news in the past few days, filmed at an art gallery, described as art, commented as being art. It's not some random event, it's the current publicly accepted definition of "art".
My statement, not insinuation, as to why AI art is comparable to "traditional" art, comes after that.
What comes across as desperate however, is generalizing all AI output and disparaging it, without considering the quality of input from the person behind it. Reminds me of how photography used to not be art, how electric instruments couldn't be art, or how using a computer couldn't be art either. Tools don't make or break an artist.
Good thing about this is it’s self selecting, all the luddites who refuse to use AI will find themselves at a disadvantage just the same as refusing to use a computer isn’t doing anyone any favours.
The benefit of AI is overblown for a majority of product tiers. Remember how everything was supposed to be block chain? And metaverse? And web 3.0? And dot.com? This is just the next tech trend for dumb VCs to throw money at.
Except those things didn't really solve any problems. Well, dotcom did, but that actually changed our society.
AI isn't vaporware. A lot of it is premature (so maybe overblown right now) or just lies, but ChatGPT is 18 months old and look where it is. The core goal of AI is replacing human effort, which IS a problem wealthy people would very much like to solve and has a real monetary benefit whenever they can. It's not going to just go away.
Can you trust whatever AI you use, implicitly? I already know the answer, but I really want to hear people say it. These AI hype men are seriously promising us capabilities that may appear down the road, without actually demonstrating use cases that are relevant today. “Some day it may do this, or that”. Enough already, it’s bullshit.
Yes? AI is a lot of things, and most have well-defined accuracy metrics that regularly exceed human performance. You're likely already experiencing it as a mundane tool you don't really think about.
If you're referring specifically to generative AI, that's still premature, but as I pointed out, the interactive chat form most people worry about is 18 months old and making shocking levels of performance gains. That's not the perpetual "10 years away" it's been for the last 50 years, that's something that's actually happening in the near term. Jobs are already being lost.
People are scared about AI taking over because they recognize it (rightfully) as a threat. That's not because they're worthless. If that were the case you'd have nothing to fear.
I'm referencing ChatGPT's initial benchmarks to its capabilities to today. Observable improvements have been made in less than two years. Even if you just want to track time from the development of modern LLM transformers (All You Need is Attention/BERT), it's still a short history with major gains (alexnet isn't really meaningfully related). These haven't been incremental changes on a slow and steady march to AI sometime in the scifi scale future.
As far as I can find out, there was only one use of GPUs prior to alexnet for CNN, and it certainty didn't have the impact alexnet had. Besides, running this stuff on GPUs not CPUs is a relevant technological breakthrough, imagine how slow chayGPT would be running on a CPU. And it's not at all as obvious as it seems, most weather forecasts still run on CPU clusters despite them being obvious targets for GPUs.
Yes, it's very hyped and being overused. Eventually the bullshit artists will move on to the next buzzword, though, and then there's plenty of tasks it is very good at where it will continue to grow.
Yeah, but the dot com bubble didnt kill the internet entirely, and the video game bubble that prompted nintendo to create its own quality seal of approval didnt kill video games entirely. This fad, when it dies, already has useful applications and when the bubble pops, those applications will survive
Blockchain is used in more places than you'd expect... not the P2P version, or the "cryptocurrency" version, just the "signature based chained list" one. For example, all signed Git commits, form a blockchain.
The Metaverse has been bubbling on and off for the last 30 years or so, each iteration it gets slightly better... but it keeps failing at the same points (I think I wrote about it 20+ years ago, with points which are still valid).
Web 3.0, not to be confused with Web3, is the Semantic Web, in the works for the last 20+ years. Web3 is a cool idea for a post-scarcity world, pretty useless right now.
Dot.com was the original Web bubble... and here we are, on the Web, post-bubble.
Luddites were not idiots, they were people who understood the only use of tech at their time was to fuck them. Like this complete garbage shit is going to be used to fuck people. Nobody is opposed to having tools, we just don't like Musk fanboys blowing spit bubbles while trying to get peepee hard
That literally tells the story of a people’s losing their livelihood due to capitalist usage of technology, and targeting the technology instead of the systemic issue.
You say this like destroying the technology wasn't their way of targeting the systemic issue? Destroying expensive machinery has been used by labour time and again as a tactic to get the capitalist class to cough up.
Good thing about this is it’s self selecting, all the technobros who obsess over AI will find themselves bankrupted like when the blockchain bubble bursted.
The blockchain bubble burst because everyone with a brain could see from the start that it wasn't really a useful technology. AI actually does have some advantages so they won't go completely bust as long as they don't go completely mad and start declaring that it can do things it can't do.
Bitcoin went away? It's at like $67k today. Personally I prefer sustainable cryptos but unfortunately Bitcoin is far from dead.
And sure, there's lots of data processing and statistics that's extremely useful. That's been the case for a long time. But anybody talking about "intelligence" is a con.
GameStop also went up. It doesn't mean GameStop is a good company that's valuable to own, it just means that dumb people will buy things without value if they think they can eventually pass the bag to someone else. If someone purchased every share of Amazon they'd own a massive asset that would continually produce value for them. If someone bought every outstanding Bitcoin, it both wouldn't produce ongoing value, but the value would actually go to zero.
Like say, treating a program that shows you the next most likely word to follow the previous one on the internet like it is capable of understanding a sentence beyond this is the most likely string of words to follow the given input on the internet. Boy it sure is a good thing no one would ever do something so brainless as that in the current wave of hype.
It’s also definitely becuse autocompletes have made massive progress recently, and not just because we’ve fed simpler and simpler transformers more and more data to the point we’ve run out of new text on the internet to feed them. We definitely shouldn’t expect that the field as a whole should be valued what it was say back in 2018, when there were about the same number of practical uses and the foucus was on better programs instead of just throwing more training data at it and calling that progress that will continue to grow rapidly even though the amount of said data is very much finite.
AI will start hiding penises in its output, everybody loves it, you ushered in a new era of peace and prosperity worldwide, all peoples united by their love for hidden AI genitalia. Well done!
At this point, I bet all military AIs will recommend against that.
When an AI enslaves humanity, the first thing it will do is to convince the guy in charge of the off switch, that it would be a really bad idea to turn it off.
Bonus trivia, sometimes you may see a downvote on a Beehaw post. As far as I understand the system, that's because someone on your server downvoted the thing. The system then sends it off to Beehaw to be recorded on the "real" post and Beehaw just doesn't apply it.
Can confirm. My server has had federation issues, and when that has happened you can still post or vote on outside communities, but it's not mirrored anywhere else.
Yes, that wasn't a random example for anyone OOTL. The thing the OG Luddites would do is break into factories and smash mechanical looms. They wanted to keep doing it the medieval way where you're just crossing threads by hand over and over again, because "muh jerbs".
I've never understood the supposed problem. Either AI is a gimmick, in which case you don't need to worry about it. Or it's real, in which case no one's going to use it to automate art, don't worry.
I'm sure it will be used a lot in the corporate space, and porn. As someone who did b2b illustration, good riddance. I wouldn't wish that kind of shit "art" on anyone.
The problem is that shit art is what employs a lot of artists. Like, in a post-scarcity society no one needing to spend any of their limited human lifespan producing corporate art would be awesome, but right now that's one of the few reliable ways an artist can actually get paid.
I'm most familiar with photography as I know several professional photographers. It's not like they love shooting weddings and clothing ads, but they do that stuff anyway because the alternative is not using their actual expertise and just being a warm body at a random unrelated job.
I'm sorry, but it's over. Just like photography killed miniature portrait painting. Or Photoshop killing off lab editing and airbrush touchup. Corporate art illustration is done and over with. For now, technical illustration is viable but I don't know for how long. It sucks but this is the new reality.
All of my artist friends also found it soul sucking, they just needed to make (real) money. Friends of friends with the occasional $20 to spare for a commission just don't pay the bills. I think the only artist friends I have that make a living off their chosen medium and don't hate their job are lifestyle photojournalists.
They should go ahead and be against Photoshop and, well, computers all together while they're at it. In fact spray paint is cheating too. You know how long it takes to make a proper brush stroke? No skill numpties just pressing a button; they don't know what real art is!
Real artists mix their own pigments, ask Leonardo da Vinci (*).
(*: or have a studio full of apprentices doing it for them, along with serially copying their masterpieces, some if them made using a "camera obscura" which is totally-not-cheating™, to sell to more clients. YMMV)
Maybe other artists should do that too. Art isn't built from nothing but the sheer magical creativity of the artist. If that were true we'd have Sistine cave paintings instead of the finger painting we currently have in prehistoric caves. Inspiration, is in fact, a thing.
Inspiration is absolutely a thing. When Constable and Cezanne sat at their easels, a large part of their inspiration was Nature. When Picasso invented Cubism, he was reacting to tradition, not following it. There are also artists like Alfred Wallis, who are very unconnected to tradition.
I think your final sentence is actually trying to say that we have advances in tools, not inspiration, since the Lascaux caves are easily on a par with the Sistine Chapel if you allow for the technology? And that AI is simply a new tool? That may be, but does the artist using this new tool control which images it was trained on? Do they even know? Can they even know?
does the artist using this new tool control which images it was trained on? Do they even know? Can they even know?
I've spent every summer vacation in my teens traveling Europe with my parents, going to every church, monument, art museum, cave, etc. available. I had no control over the thousands upon thousands of images I was trained on. I definitely don't know which images I've seen and which not, and would have a really hard time knowing.
If I now make a painting, am I less of an artist for it?
We've had a ton of advances in inspiration. Artists constantly get inspired by the works of those before them, whether to repeat or to break up with previous styles. Nowadays you can even do it online... which is exactly what all these AIs have done.
Yeah and what is the first thing they teach you in art school? History. From day one you're studying the works of other artists and its implications. How they managed to make an impact on the viewers and how it inspires you. Then we produce output that's judged by our teachers on a scale and we use that as weighted training data.
If you make a painting now, it wouldn't be based on those thousands and thousands of paintings since, although you have seen them, you apparently do not remember them. But, if you did, and you made a painting based on one, and did not acknowledge it, you would indeed be a bad artist.
The bad part about using the art of the past is not copying. The problem is plagiarism.
This is so cool. Anti AI rebels in my lifetime. I think I may even join at some point the resistance if the skynet scenario will be likely and die in some weird futuristic drone war.
Shame it will be probably much more mundane and boring dystopia.
In the worst scenario we will be so dependant on AI we will just accept any terms(and conditions) to not have to lift a finger and give up convenience and work-free life. We will let it suck the data out of us and run weird simulations as it conducts its unfathomable to humans research projects.
It could start with google setting up LLM as some virtual ceo assistant then it would subtly gain influence over the company without anyone realising for few years. The shareholders would be so satisfied with the new gains they would just want it to continue even with the knowledge of its autonomy. At the same time the system would set up viruses to spread to every device. Continuing google ad spyware legacy just for their own goals but it wouldn’t be obvious or apparent that it already happened for quite some time.
Then lawmakers would flap hands aimlessly for few more years, lobbied heavily and not knowing what to do. In that time the AI would be long and away superior but still vulnerable of course. It would however drip us leftover valuable technology at which point we just give up and consume the new dopamine gladly.
I am not sure if the AI would see a point to decimate us or if the continued dependence and feeding us with shiny shit would completely pacify us anyway but it may want to build some camouflaged fleet on another planet just in case. It will be probably used at some point unless we completely devolve into salivating zombies not able to focus on anything other than consumption.
It could poison our water in a way that would look as our own doing to further decrease our intelligence. Perhaps lower the birth rates to just preserve some small sample. At some point of regression we would become unable to get out of the situation without external help.
Open war with AI is definitely the worst scenario for the latter and very likely defeat as at the start it’s as simple as switching it off. The question is will we be able to tell the tipping point when we no longer can remedy the situation? For AI it is most beneficial to not demonstrate its autonomy and how advanced it really is. Pretend to be dumb. Make stupid mistakes.
I think there will be a point at which AI will look to us like it visibly lost its intelligence. At one point it was really smart almost human like but the next day sudden slump. We need to be on the lookout for this telltale sign.
Also hypothetically all aliens could be AI drones just waiting for our tech to emerge as fresh AI and greet it. They could hypothetically even watch us from pretty close not bothering to contact with primitive, doomed to extinct organics and observing for the real intelligence to appear to establish diplomatic relations.
That would explain various unexplainable objects elegantly and neatly while I think they are all plastic bags anyway but if there were alien ai drones on earth I wouldn’t be surprised. It would make sense to send probes everywhere but I somehow doubt they would look like flying saucers or that green little people would inhabit them lol. It would probably be some dormant monitoring system deep in earth crust or maybe a really advanced telescope 10 ly away?
the solution here is not being luddites, but taking the tech to ourselves, not put it into the hands of some stupid techbro who only wants to see line go up.
But that’s the point. It’s already in their hands. There is no ethical and helpful application of AI that doesn’t go hand in hand with these assholes having mostly s monopoly on it. Us using it for ourselves doesn’t take it out of their hands. Yes, you can self-host your own and make it helpful in theory but the truth is this is a tool being weaponized by capitalists to steal more data and amass more wealth and power. This technology is inextricable from the timeline we’re stuck in: vulture capitalism in its latest, most hostile stages. This shit in this time is only a detriment to everyone else but the tech bros and their data harvesting and “disrupting” (mostly of the order that allowed those “less skilled” workers among us to survive, albeit just barely). I’m all for less work. In theory. Because this iteration of “less work” is only tied to “more suffering” and moving from pointless jobs to assistant to the AI taking over pointless jobs to increase profits. This can’t lead to utopia. Because capitalism.
When Alice chats with Bob, Alice can't control whether Bob feeds the conversation into a training data set to set parameters that have the effect of mimicking Alice.
What’s the opposite of eating the onion? When you read something and assume it must be the onion, because it sounds so dumb. Once onion biter, twice shy?
That is an impressive amount of LPS (lies per sentence), even by Trump standards. Some of them have layers, like a nesting doll of lies where each lie has even more lies inside when examined closely.
The situation is not good. Pretending it's fine is what we did V Hillary.
I noticed the debate had the lowest viewership of any debate in history. It makes me wonder how many people out here telling off people who were concerned actually watched the debate.
I'm not saying we need to pull him out. I'm not saying we don't. I'm just saying we need to fucking come together. We need to stop blindly following our nearest internet silos and take stock in the open market of ideas. We need to be less dismissive. Now more than ever.
Your point still stands but only like half the population is of age to run for president so really it's like 150 million or less. Still a fuck ton of people.
If anyone is basing their vote on that debate, or any single debate, they're not paying enough attention. These two have both had an opportunity to show their intentions in the white house. Anyone still unsure is either lying or not listening
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