I'm usually against tariffs but in this case it seems like a pretty fair tit for tat to China basically removing the budgetary concerns for their manufacturers that said manufacturer's international counterparts won't have.
Subsidizing local production for local markets is fine enough, but exporting products made with an infinite money glitch active is more or less an intentional play at market capture.
And before some sinoboo tries to gatcha me I do also object to examples where the west subsidizes domestic production for international markets.
My guess that the prior comment either reflects an assumption that non western capitalists are somehow better than western capitalists or that China's capitalists aren't a capitalist class.
No ethical way to spend in a capitalist society. It kind of is what it is, cause I gotta eat. Also certified "you criticize capitalism yet you live in it moment" to you sir.
Where I was going was: effects can be different even if all choices and results are unethical. If one cares about the possible impacts of ones actions, consideration beyond "well it's all unethical, so whatever" could be warranted.
You tell yourself whatever you need to to live in this society and be happy. I'm sure the extra $.80 you're spending for the label that says cruelty free, is in fact cruelty free.
I was born into a car centric society. So much so they design the places we live around them. Including dense residential far away from employment that requires transportation. Chop all attempts at decent public transit and now you have created a market of completely artificial demand. Which the law says cars must become more expensive. I have to have a car because of the awful design choices made by unqualified politicians past. Fuck the auto industry. They could have been out saviors by being the example of what union companies do but instead chose violence.
That $10k Chinese car cost $20k to make. A competitor undercutting the market that much leads to monopolization. When that competitor is being bankrolled by a foreign government it's potentially even a hostile act.
People have been mad for decades about what Walmart did to retail in the US. Taking steps to prevent that from also happening with the auto industry should be appreciated.
I want a $10000 car that would normally be inflated to $30000 in the US.
You can't make that same car in the United States for anything like the same price. Even ignoring the Chinese Governments heavy subsidies there's still a massive cost gap due to worker compensation, cost of compliance with safety regulations, cost of compliance with environmental regulations, and a whole host of other things.
The cost of manufacturing in the United States is radically higher than it is in China and that simply isn't fixable unless you're going to unwind Union pay deals, remove environmental laws, and reduce safety restrictions.
You cannot have both, so which are you choosing? Are you going to go with your wallet like a self absorbed capitalist or are you going to support union workers, stronger environmental laws, and more worker safety?
This is what I try to tell people who just want the cheapest things possible. We're voting with our dollars what kind of world we want.
Also, shipping things across the sea burns some of the worst fuel for the environment so I'd rather buy things made here and support the local economy whenever possible.
Love seeing people spread awareness of bunker fuel. It's absolutely terrible and would be illegal if humans were rational and wanted to survive as a species
This is what I try to tell people who just want the cheapest things possible. We're voting with our dollars what kind of world we want.
Ok, please tell me where can I buy <insert anything here> that's wasn't totally or partially made in China??
I'm an avid learner and DIY, I try to only buy raw materials and tools to make everything I can myself ... I have yet to see standard basic tools that were not made in China...
I understand your point, but to expect that "voting with your wallet" will cause change, is like hoping we can turn around a cruise ship by blowing at it
Just look at the enshitification of everything... Did people vote that in with their wallets? Or all services decided that on greed and left us no choice but to hold our noses or give up the last few vestiges of entertainment that we could still afford?
While I can’t say any of this is wrong, you’re missing likely the single biggest component inflating the cost of US manufacturing: profit margins. Every step of the supply chain has a profit margin attached. Sometimes just a few percent, but often double digits. These compound, so a 5% margin on a simple component will see an additional 15% when sold as part of an assembly, which is then marked up another 20% when sold as part of the finished good. There’s also financialization which burdens US companies. Companies generally need to take loans to fund their operations, and end up having to pay heavy interest fees and rent which also drives up cost. Workers and environmental protections are more expensive, but in practice they are relatively minor compared to a lot of other inefficiencies US industry struggles with.
Doesn't the USA have much higher wealth inequality than China's? If so, is that not the result of corruption? If not, so you consider the visible symptoms of it?
I think most people will choose what they can actually afford. The fact that things cost so much and people aren't being paid anywhere near enough to compensate for the skyrocketing price of consumer goods, including vehicles.
Whatever the reasons, there is a very serious and dangerous disconnect between the prices of American goods and the spending power of the average American. Unless we do something about that - and I do not mean short-sighted, punitive, protectionist measures like tariffs - China is going to drink our milkshake.
Maybe the problem is our lifestyles. I'm unaware of any long term studies suggesting that in a situation in which the population increases and the resources and land are fixed, that it gets cheaper for anyone wanting anything.
Mexico is just across the boarder, and US car makers already make their stuff there to save cash. Mexico has a pretty low unemployment rate right now, so pushing even more labor demand their way would help improve a lot of peoples' lives by lifting salaries.
But a lot of the cost is in battery manufacturing, not assembly. We need to experiment with sodium-ion batteries to bring those costs down for economy-class cars, just like China is. Maybe $10k is too little, but $15-20k should be feasible for a very basic car.
Yup, and I'm looking at them. But it's important to point out that they're not really discontinued, Chevy said they're planning to upgrade the battery packs and relaunch, but they're currently focusing on other car offerings. So I'm guessing it'll relaunch in a year or two.
Sure we will take the sacrifice... I'm sure this time capitalist will get the message and start behaving reasonably
It's like that time thousands of us reduced or eliminated meat intake and suddenly the Kardashians realized taking private jet flight to avoid a few minutes of traffic was bad and stopped doing it
Everyone talks about how shitty the environment is and that we're going to get burned alive in our lifetime...but at the same time, fuck the environment if it means cheap goods.
Here's some fun math. Burning a gallon of gas emits 8,887g of CO2. Let's call it 8.9kg. 1000kgs in a tonne. That means 112 gallons emits a tonne of CO2.
With me so far?
It costs around $500 to remove a tonne of CO2 from the atmosphere.
People act like $3/gal for gas is too much. I say, it's nowhere near high enough. Gas has to cost $4.46/gal just to cover cleaning up the CO2 emitted from it. That's just cleanup.
Maybe if we had to pay the cost for our lifestyle, we'd readdress what we actually need. Instead, we have government subsidized global destruction. All of the EV/renewable tax rebates are great (as long as you can use them)...but it's nothing compared to what oil gets.
It's not the capitalist auto companies who are going to get hurt though. The price advantage of the Chinese companies comes from low labor costs and government subsidies, so the auto companies will just move there production to whatever country offers the most subsidies and least labor costs because in our current globalized world capital can move freely.
The real losers will be the unionized auto workers who'll be abandoned while capitalists maintain or even increase there profits in the third world. These sorts of race to the bottom always harm workers, whether it be with clothes and shein , or EVs.
God forbid anyone get a cheap EV before US car companies sort out which $50,000+ car brand can position itself as the “luxury” one before accepting that they need to build cheaper models.
The Chinese state isn't selling cars under the cost of construction. The subsidies come in the form of cheap (increasingly nuclear) energy, publicly funded STEM/trade schools, and public health care. These socialized benefits reduce the real cost of living in China and grow the domestic consumer car market, along with lowering the per-unit production costs.
American car companies have long been hobbled by the obscene cost of employment benefits - high salaries to cover housing costs and student debts, high private insurance premiums, high administration overhead, the constant need to fund stock buybacks in order to keep the value of their stock-incentives up. The deal with the devil they cut with Truman - to make medical insurance a private tax write-off rather than a public good - combined with the enormous Reagan Era tax cuts and rapidly metasticizing private health industry administrative overhead, drives up the cost of each vehicle by thousands of dollars.
This sucks for the car companies, but is fucking awesome for the FIRE sector. And since 30% of the US GDP is tied up in financing, insurance, and real estate growth, our private automotive industry is effectively forced to subsidize their profits. That's what makes American cars so expensive relative to their East Asian peers.
Meanwhile the US doesn't subsidize (or even bail out) its too-big-to-fail auto companies, right? If you consider affordable products a deliberate economic attack, what do you call the extreme price gouging that the American auto companies are carrying out?
Chinese vehicles suck. Here in mexico they're all over the place, and their quality is questionable. MGs are a joke now. Good for the US to block these imports.
I’m more annoyed that basically every western car company tried to make a $70,000 luxury EV to upscale their brand instead of making a sensible one that people will actually buy. If we want widespread adoption, we need more EVs that aren’t priced based on some pipe dream that people will wake up one day and think Ford is a luxury brand.
The tech for EVs is not quite there yet. Most technologies/services star as a luxury ok this cases where the manufacturing costs are still too high. For example Uber, which started as a luxury service before being widespread with the shitty service they became.
That's one of the reasons why I hope my country sets restrictions on these Chinese EVs, as there is not enough infrastructure in Mexico for EVs to even existe, and we can't produce enough energy for them to be a viable solution for transportation. Heck, I'm even with Toyota and believe EVs are not a tech we should be investing in, and the world will not move to EVs as a widespread mode of transportation. i certainly hope so, because people buying EVs thinking they are the most green solution are not seeing the elephant in the room.
I mean, we need to stop taking carbon out of the ground and lighting it on fire so it becomes atmospheric carbon. I’m not expecting middle income countries to carry the load but it’s way easier in a rich country like the U.S. or E.U. to switch to electric and switch power generation to renewables or nuclear than it is to (for instance) convince everyone to stop eating beef.
In no way do I think electric cars by themselves to solve the problem. It’s gotta be a comprehensive strategy. I live in a place that’s prone to hurricanes (New Orleans) and I added solar+batter to my house and got a plugin hybrid. It’s actually better because every few years, a storm knocks out the power grid for a few days and I can still juice up my car an bit and air condition at least one room. So, oil/gas power is unreliable for me when I need it most. But we’re on the front lines, being below sea level, and everyone is going to get there if we keep lighting carbon on fire and making carbon dioxide.
Sure thing, but most people into EVs feel greener while driving EVs, and think that's all they need to do. A state in Mexico bought electric busses for public transportation and results they charge them with diesel generators, so EVs are now just a gimmick of being environmentally friendly, it's so dumb.
I'm all for changing from fossil fuels to renewable energy, but EVs are in no way a factor for the general public to adopt alternative energies. EVs replacing fossil fuel vehicles won't happen as fast as needed for it to make a change in people's minds that solar or nuclear are needed.
What tech are you talking about? I'm talking about the grid not being able to serve everyone switching to EVs anytime soon. Also people don't factor the batteries needing replacement after some years like any other appliance running on batteries, and those can be quite expensive to replace.
Cuz China is well known for subsidizing production (well the US kinda does it too for some productos anyway). I personally wouldn't buy a Chinese vehicle out of security and quality concerns, regardless of it being Ev or not.
If the vehicles are so low quality and dangerous, then it wouldn't be the job of tariffs but of bans, since there are minimum safety standards that still apply.
I think part of the problem is that new cars are bought mostly by fairly well-off individuals; with other people buying used cars. Economy cars sell poorly in the U.S.
I was just talking to my dad about this the other day and I told him that it was only a matter of time before the US government goes after Chinese EV's at the request of the US auto lobby.
I didn't think it would be this soon, though. Hurray for more garbage EV's for $50,000+
Volvo EX30 compact EV SUV comes out this year with a base price of 35k. I consider that exceptionally reasonable (esp. for a Volvo). I'd buy one myself, but getting my house setup for EVs is a huge can of worms. My electric main is buried, I only have 100a service and my panel is full to the brim.
Isn't 100A considered inside for an all electric home?
Most homes nowadays are 200A. I could probably make it work, or get a smart panel to not have to worry about it...but upgrading service is practically impossible unless I can get someone else to pay for it. We'd have to remove a bunch of trees to trench to where the junction box is, and then trench across our driveway, too. Unless I lucked out and there oversized conduit there already, but I highly doubt it. As much as I've been told, the neighborhood was built with direct-bury service entrances.
Dunno. I've got 3 phase, 400V, 100A service which results in 68kW useable. However, because one of sub junction boxes which, unfortunately the wall boxes are connected to is wired internally with 10mm², I've enabled peer to peer load management across my wallboxes for now so they never pull more than 28A per phase. Most cars here support three phase charging so that's still fine even for two cars. I'll get to rewiring that, for now it works.
The go-e wallboxes I have support a central controller which in turn can measure current on all three phases into the home, e.g. to use a solar system to its maximum, but also to limit absolute load on the house connection. They just use three hall sensors for power measurement as far as I know, so installation is relatively unintrusive.
I went without that and solved the whole solar optimization using EVCC and regarding absolute load I'm just yoloing it, but then again, I do have a neat safety margin.
That makes sense...if the charger is aware of its own load and the load of the whole house, it can slow down or stop charging to let the other stuff catch up.
I don't know where you are but 3-Phase is rather uncommon in US Residential. We use split-phase, where we have two 120v lines that use a common neutral, and we get 240v across the two 120v hots (with no neutral...but some 240V outlets do have a neutral leg for parts of the appliance needing 120V.
A while ago, the YouTuber Technology Connections did a segment on the Span smart panel...and I think there's a handful of others...that measures the load of each circuit and can triage circuits if there's too much demand. This is really where smart appliances should be heading. It's cool that my dryer can tell me how many KWh are consumed by a load, but I'd much rather it be able to cooperate with all my other loads and maybe turn off the heating element for a bit.
Germany, 3-phase, 400V to the home is pretty much the standard here.
We use split-phase, where we have two 120v lines that use a common neutral
Yeah, yeah, I know. It was frustrating in the beginning of electric cars - all the manufacturers put those single phase chargers into their cars because US and Asia just didn't need anything else and we were left bumbling along at 4.2kW charging to avoid too much asymmetric load (most providers here limit you to 20A asymmetry although I've been known not to give a fuck) while two wonderfully capable phases sat around doing nothing and the third was only used half the way at most.
This is really where smart appliances should be heading.
Yeah, that looks interesting, although it's unusual to see any "intelligence" delegated to the panel housing. Usually here, the panel cabinet is something like this:
...which is a mechanical housing and some very basic distribution on the lower left. Everything else is built while the distributor is fitted. Look like this in the end:
Anyway, you can get this functionality right now, for example with a go-e wallbox and the go-e controller and retrofit it without touching the rest. That's not really a reason not to get an electric car.
I’m frankly getting pretty goddamn annoyed at all the people who relentlessly fail to understand that the PRC is heavily subsidizing production of basically all of their EVs in the interest of undercutting literally all other countries that are (or are trying to) produce EVs.
By all means, research what I’m saying here to confirm its veracity - in fact I encourage you to. This is economic warfare, plain and simple.
EVE Online taught me this lesson. Those with the resources to do so will take a loss to price you out of the market, because they know you can’t take the losses nearly as long as they can.
And that’s precisely what’s happening here. A car manufacturer with a whole-ass government subsidizing it is going to be able to operate just fine at a loss pretty much indefinitely, whereas a normal car manufacturer would sooner or later simply go bankrupt (pointedly ignoring the whole “too big to fail” idiocy, which to be honest, while similar, isn’t quite the same thing).
Allowing a country's political party to position their industry in a monopolistic way is a bad idea. When one group controls an industry they much more easily exploit their consumers. Encouraging folks to buy ev's in general is different from undercutting prices to create a dominant position in the market that can be exploited once you have no meaningful competitors
That being said, we all know thats not why they're doing it, they're doing it to protect the interests of US auto makers, which also sucks
China is hardly going to be able to under cut the Big 3. Unless they just refuse to come down on their prices. More competition stops monopolistic forces, not the other way around. This narrative has been going around like our auto industry is some mom and pop shop that needs protection from Walmart. In reality they're the monopolistic force in our market and you can see that by the insane prices they are charging.
Bro. The rebates go to the buyer. They don’t go to the corps. It’s specifically targeted to make it cheaper for US residents to buy EVs in America.
Edit: actually, more foundational question: do you understand the difference between production subsidy and purchase rebate? And do you understand that the rebate is not applicable outside of the US?
That is a hilariously myopic and egocentric way of looking at the situation, to the extent that it makes me suspicious that you’re on the conservative spectrum.
Its not just the EV, its every layer of the supply chain. From the lithium they mine, the batteries they make out of it, the circuits and metal fabricating. Their government subsidies the electricity, tools, facilities, labor, etc. I work in the engineering field and I see bits and pieces of this everyday and have seen it for decades because I'm forced to source parts from China.
I know. I’m trying to dumb it down a bit because the dipshits who argue about this stuff don’t seem to understand the incredible level of complexity of modern-day high tech consumer product manufacturing logistics.
…it is bad. It’s particularly bad because the PRC is running the show, and they very certainly do not have the best interest of any group but themselves (as in, the Party, and particularly, the Party Committee) in mind.
The PRC is trying to crush any and all competition. This isn’t them being ecologically friendly or magnanimous in any way. The entire point of this is so they can do the best they can to corner the market, which is easier when the government you operate under just hands you money so you can immediately recoup substantial fraction of your balance sheet liabilities. They are doing this because they want to control the EV market, which will give the PRC a substantial amount of geopolitical power (case in point: look at Taiwan with their chip foundries). And, of course, Party officials and the corporate leadership of their car companies stand to make a fair bit of dosh too.
More broadly, I don’t like when any country does this, including the US. The primary reason I’m singling the PRC out here is because that’s the topic of the post.
Although the BYDs and GWMs and MGs are getting popular in Australia, I have literally never seen a Chinese EV in the States outside of locally built BYD busses, and BYD cars have distinct designs that are fairly easy to spot. So this feels like posturing to me.
I have literally never seen a Chinese EV in the States outside of locally built BYD busses, and BYD cars have distinct designs that are fairly easy to spot. So this feels like posturing to me.
The Chinese business strategy has been to target East Asian, Indian, Russian, and West African car markets. They're not trying to compete with US cars in the United States. They're displacing US export markets in the Third World. You might be able to find them south of the border, however. In the first five months of 2023, Chinese exports to Latin America reached over 330,000 vehicles with a special focus on Mexico and Chile.
These taxation and regulatory provisions are shockingly similar to the Chinese rules that guys like Biden and Trump deride as anti-competitive. And given the quality of US vehicles has long been sketchy at best, with a continued reliance on ICE engines in a market that increasingly favors the cheaper and more reliable electric vehicles, its questionable how long the Big Three domestic brands can even survive.
They've been getting ready to ship to the US for a while. The EX30 arrived this year and is getting pretty good reception. It's 35,000 and the best rated EV SUV at it's price point. It's 7 overall behind vehicles 20,000 more expensive.
Isn't this just a ban on Chinese evs? Just with extra steps? Make it impossible financially to sell it in the US pretty much is a ban without saying it's a ban
I don't know how to use this site. Samsung is a Korean company, so I look there, but I don't see anything about samsung or phones. Clicking on "mach & elec" or "consumer goods" doesn't seem to help either.
I was too, until I found out they completely removed the driver instrument cluster, so even the speedometer is on the infotainment screen. I’m all for large screens, but the speedo and other necessary gauges should still be in front of the driver or on a HUD.
100% agree. They really stripped that car down in order to make it work with a 27% import tax from China. Few physical buttons, a soundbar instead of door speakers, etc. There are a number of quirky design
Android Automotive (not to be confused with Android Auto) is the only thing that makes me think I could make it work. More specifically, Google Assistant control for HVAC, defrost, etc.
One of the things that drives me nuts about Telsa is that the buttons are missing, and the voice control is shit in comparison to Assistant and even janky ’ol Siri.
Yeah, reviewers seem to like the sound bar and think it sounds better than what Volvo Polestar have done in the past.
Seems like a solution that other manufacturers should adopt. It can bring the sticker price down and can sound better in many use cases. Although it might come at the expense of diminished audio for rear passenger.
There's a car out now that uses an actual glass HUD. I'd go for that. Give me the name of the band playing, my speed, and my next turn right in front of me instead of to the side.
It gets worse. Not only did they remove the the cluster and shifted everything to the infotainment a-la Tesla, but their system for detecting if you're looking at the road (for alertness/safety reasons) immediately starts screaming at you when you glance over at the speedometer on your infotainment screen. Who tf designed that system?
I wonder how repairable and maintainable these will be as compared to EV's from other markets and if replacement batteries will be available as the original ones reach the end of their useful life.
If these concerns end up being valid, and the tariffs are large enough that these cars aren't priced particularly competitively, that'd be enough for this EV consumer to pass it up for his next vehicle. Will be interested to see how it plays out.
Edit: Wanted to say I'm not against Chinese EV's. If it ends up making sense to get one, I will.
Presumably the manufacturers of these things would have to set up a dealer network in the US of some sort in order to be competitive at all. Otherwise, these will be completely dead in the water with US buyers. Plastic crap from Temu and AliExpress is one thing, but I can tell you nobody will buy something as expensive as a car knowing it's completely unsupported.
Historically, importing Chinese vehicles has been a totally buyer-beware operation. You might get a short replacement parts only warranty from whoever the importer is if you're very lucky. Otherwise, you're on your own. Both finding the parts and doing the labor. I say this as an owner of three (3) Chinese motorcycles which have been fine enough machines for what they are, but never mind a warranty -- no mechanic's shop will touch them even if you're willing to pay. So I do my own work on them.
But cheap motorcycles are way less complex than a full sized electric car.
Yes but like OP said the labor is the problem. You have to have shops willing to work on them unless you're willing and ready to work on them yourself.
Parts, sure. So, after a 3 month shipping wait from China you get a replacement battery or drive unit dropped at the end of your driveway on a pallet. Now what?
I don't think any buyers other than maybe the guy who runs the Aging Wheels channel are going to be willing to take apart their own Chinese EV and do major repairs to it. If no one works on it, or if they open a perfunctory couple of service centers that are all conveniently thousands of miles away from where you live, that's not going to do you much good.
