Israel actually does care about getting aid into the country
Is this why there was the flour massacre and many others around that time, and why the WCK aid workers were killed? Oh yeah and why they said they were stopping all food and water? And why there is much less aid coming in than there was before the war even started, when the need was much lower?
Wow, two trucks blown up out of how many tens of thousands of trucks?
Don't be an idiot. They were travelling a "safe" route. They were coordinating their position with Israel. They were innocent aid workers. They should have never been killed. Making out it is fine because it's "rare" is ridiculous.
"Hysterical"? No. I used no emotive language (apart from "massacre" which is generally how that event is referred to), I just listed some of the many facts that show Israel is the main problem for aid distribution. Calling this "hysterical" is a pathetic rhetorical trick to make out that that everyone else is "emotional" and you are "rational." It's embarrassing.
Hysterical would be: OMG those innocent aid workers were BUTCHERED by Israel, brutally killed in the prime of their life. This is the worst crime imaginable, can you think of how their parents feel?! These people are monsters, MONSTERS. Worse than Hitler. Like Satan himself. If you didn't cry about this you are SCUM.
I said they "were killed."
Totally emotionless.
What? There is less aid than before the war because there is a war. How does that not make sense to you?
It's totally possible to designate actual safe zones for humanitarian purposes and give these people aid. And "because there is a war" there is much more need for humanitarian aid. Because Israel has destroyed food production, water desalination plants and much more. But obviously you know that.
Israel increased the demand for aid, killed people distributing aid, stops much of the aid from getting in, and makes it impossible to safely get it (e.g. flour massacre) and you have the gall to say they "want" aid in. Give us a fucking break.
Around 500 trucks with aid and other commercial supplies were entering Gaza daily before the conflict, when the enclave was also able to produce much of its food through agriculture and fishing, both of which have nearly entirely ceased.
UNRWA communications director Juliette Touma said both humanitarian and commercial supplies were needed for Gaza because the entire population was now dependent on handouts, which was not sustainable.
Down from 500 to 100 to 200 a day. Rarely (like in the linked story) more, often much less. Never 500 since October, despite calls from around the world.
This is why you fall back on pretending everyone arguing with you is overly emotional or just stupid. The facts are staring all of us in the face and we see it too clearly. You want to pretend this is "normal" but have to really double down in the face of such overwhelming evidence.
But you are flat out lying. Gaza has built three desalinization plants in Gaza since this war has started. Every one of them built with charity. Every one of them built with materials that Israel allowed into the country. None of the three have been bombed.
Yes two aid trucks, two accidents, neither one was covered up, the perpetrators were fired and will be prosecuted. That's normal for war.
And did you just ignore the hundreds of killed aid workers I mentioned (and linked a source for) in my last comment? You say just "two accidents" as if that's it.
What's not normal is a country that needs 500 aid trucks a day. Gaza has been dependent on handouts for decades
And half of Gaza's water infrastructure being destroyed (based on BBC satellite photos and guesswork) also does not impress me
Wasn't trying to impress you. Just clarifying that I was not lying.
Oh no, poor Gaza. They gave all their water to terrorism and didn't save enough for themselves.
"Gave all their water to terrorism" - do you even hear yourself? Did the malnourished children "give" their water to Hamas? I can't even believe you're being serious here.
And like, Jesus fucking Christ. Did you read your own article? Did you look at the photograph in the very first picture in the article that shows the water tanks clearly were not targeted by Israel?
Yeah of course I did. It's the middle one here. How exactly does this show it's not been targeted? And if they really aren't targeting them, why have 53% been destroyed or damaged? Are they the worst army at aiming in the world or something?
No, of course you didn't, because it doesn't support your imaginary version of the evil Jew.
Are you saying I'm antisemitic for believing the FACT that Israel has damaged much of the water infrastructure in Gaza?
I'm just not impressed by 500 bodies in a warzone. It doesn't matter that they're volunteers.
Aid workers. Protected by international law. But also it's only about 250. I guess you are less "impressed" now as if that was the goal, lol.
500 died. Why do you ignore the tens of thousands who did not?
Yeah I broke your nose, but why are you ignoring the 205 bones I didn't break? Hopefully you can see how stupid a thing this is to say.
Just kidding it's because it doesn't fit your narrative of the evil Jewish aggressor and makes you sound hysterical and idiotic.
Please show me anywhere on my entire Lemmy account where I have said anything negative about Jewish people because they are Jewish and not just because the ones in the IDF are DOING WAR CRIMES and also happen to be Jewish. I never even mention this because it does not matter. You can tell this very easily because if you do look through my account you will see me criticise Hamas for their war crimes and the US political establishment for supporting Israel's war crimes.
But that's the thing, you would be saying it's an accident but if it happens again and again, why should anyone believe you?
I never said they wanted to kill all aid workers. They had just killed 254 by when that report came out. You don't need to intend to kill all for it to be bad
You are free to explain why someone is denying genocide. You are not free to make that accusation because you do not know the reasoning behind their statements. People have the right to disagree that something is happening and be wrong.
So all the people (including YourPrivatHater) who accuse others of being antisemitic are also breaking this rule, aren't they?
They do not know the reasoning behind the statement that prompted the accusation and it is very uncivil to say that. How can that be different?
If we only count instances like these we see from Israel, where an innocent person is literally used as a shield and not just sat at home or something, how many cases of Hamas using human shields actually are there?
It's because I don't understand how you can see that image and read that story and immediately jump to Hamas. Instead of saying "this has to stop" all you did was point the finger at Hamas. It comes across as totally callous
The problem is that Israel actually announced that they were going to cut off food and water to the population, and they have recently destroyed vital infrastructure. So if you come at this without acknowledging that of course people are going to downvote you.
Both are to blame. Hamas more so than Israel.
Both yes. But how is Hamas more to blame than Israel?
I would like to see your source about the pipes, it seems a little unclear from a quick Google. But it seems like the bigger problem is the destruction of the desalination plants by Israel. Even if they were in tact they need fuel to run. I find it difficult to believe that this is truly more on Hamas than it is on Israel.
This video of them using the water pipes comes from here. See the same clip at 4 minutes in. The pipes were from Israeli settlements. The Telegraph just reused the footage and threw in some vague stuff about the EU, without actually saying where the pipes came from.
Unless you have something showing that the pipes were to supply water to Gaza? Rather than to steal it.
Well prior to Oct7 water was there
You should read that article I posted last time. It was already pretty bad. And then as I said Israel blew up the desalination plants. How does this make it more Hamas than Israel?
But all that is irrelevant as first blood was drawn by Hamas. Resulting deaths are a response to that.
History did not start on October 7th. "First blood" lol you must be joking. Ever heard of the Nakba?
If Hamas really cared about civilians...
From this point on you're just repeating talking points. No need to go into all this when we're talking about the clear factual reality of why this poor child and many like him have severe malnutrition.
Oh no no, Israel are monsters whether they accept or not. You can't kill over 10k children and purposefully try to create a famine and get away without that label.
Gaza needs to be "dehamasafied" a la Berlin 1945
If you think the current conflict hasn't created more terrorists than it's killed you are not thinking empathetically. If a nearby state killed your whole family and destroyed your home because some authoritarian regime you never voted for pissed them off and you could do nothing about it, would you really be less likely to want to take up arms against them? Give me a break.
The only solution is peace. The only way to get true peace is to give Palestine a proper state and freedom from occupation. Dismantle illegal settlements. Immediately release "administrative detainees" held without charge (aka hostages). In short, give Palestinians the same respect and rights as everybody else. You cannot bomb this problem out of existence.
Well peace, until Hamas has gathered more strength and attacks Israel again, right?
No, by peace I mean peace. Like the ordinary meaning of the word.
How many months of peace do you think it will be before they’re firing rockets into Israel again?
Maybe if Israel tries not oppressing people? Wild idea I know. Not a defence of their actions, but if you abuse a people for long enough it's not exactly unexpected is it? My previous comment is full of ideas that would make this much less likely to happen. It could be stopped entirely with diplomacy, although without addressing the serious systemic inequalities it would probably flare up again, yeah.
The only solution is the dehamasification of Gaza.
How do you achieve this? Do you think the current conflict is going to plan in this regard?
It's really weird how they emphasise this "rape and abuse of women" line when things are looking bad for them. It's like they see this as the thing that generates the most outrage, and all they have left say in their defense is "Hamas is evil." So they try to make everyone focus on the emotional response to the horrors on October 7th so it "feels" like this is a fair justification.
They have had this footage for over 7 months. And it just so happens that they sat on it until now, and released it shortly after the ICJ ruling. Hmmmmmmm
They seem to think they can distract everybody with this like they're jingling keys for a baby
Imagine being stuck between Hamas, who uses your suffering to increase support for their cause, and Israel who is more than happy to kill you anyway. And rather than sympathise with these poor people you take to the internet to defend the murderers in the IDF just because the other side is also bad.
Imagine if you were close enough to your humanity to feel for the people suffering instead of just running transparent PR for the ones killing thousands and thousands of children
I think if you can't see the implications of this in the current context you are lost. This focus on the horrendous crimes that took place on October 7th is being used to justify a genocide. Of course it was horrendous. But ever since then we have seen a continuous stream of horrendous crimes, and narrowly focusing on the 1,200 victims of October 7th is a game to distract attention from the 35,000 + mainly innocent people who have been brutally killed in the almost 8 months since then and still being killed now.
This story on it's own is about despicable crimes and there would be nothing to object to. The wider context and specific timing make it more sinister
Medical workers in Israel have told the BBC that Palestinian detainees from Gaza are routinely kept shackled to hospital beds, blindfolded, sometimes naked, and forced to wear nappies – a practice one medic said amounted to “torture”....
There were instances where I heard staff discuss whether detainees from Gaza should get painkillers. Or ways to perform certain procedures that can turn the treatment into punishment.
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One doctor with knowledge of conditions there said prolonged cuffing to beds would cause “huge suffering, horrible suffering”, describing it as “torture” and saying patients would start to feel pain after a few hours.
_
So, if you put together [that] someone is undergoing an invasive procedure, which involves even incisions, and doesn’t know about that, and is blindfolded, then the line between treatment and assault thins out.”
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"This period was mental and physical torture,” he said. “I can’t describe it. I was detained with two legs and now I have only one. Every now and then, I cry.”
This is torture. The "staff in a free country" raising their "safety concerns" are whistleblowers and the IDF's response is that (often innocent) detainees were treated "appropriately and carefully" but then when given details...
The IDF did not respond to the specific allegations about Sufian’s treatment, but said the claims of violence towards him during his arrest or detention “were unknown and will be examined”.
So what all of this is leading towards is... Are these the people you're taking to the internet to defend? Are you fucking seriously doing a "bu.. but the other side!!" in response to very credible accusations of torture?
You seem to think this is all fine but the staff working there do not:
Yoel Donchin, the anaesthesiologist, said medical staff at the field hospital sometimes gathered together to cry over the situation there.
“The moment our hospital closes,” he said, “we’ll celebrate.”
These people are the hypocrites you should be angry about and the fact that you tried to deflect onto Gazans tells me everything I need to know about you. You should be ashamed of yourself. If you can read about torture and not even acknowledge how wrong it is, and instead take to the comments to defend them, you might actually be evil.
But the war is against Hamas, not all Palestinians, right?! I'm sure the violent settlers were punished for their crimes and not actively supported by the IDF, right?! It couldn't be that this is simply consistent with Israel's genocidal aims. There must be a really complicated explanation for why all of this was necessary to kill anyone who is Palestinian "protect Israel" from "terrorists."
The total number of dead also does not include the approximately 10,000 people who are still missing and trapped under the rubble, the officials added....
Zionists seem convinced that "incomplete information" means "fake, made up death." A child's body not being tied to a full name does not mean there is not a dead child.
There is a group of climate change deniers who believe that adjustments to data made by NOAA and explained clearly (to ensure comparability over time even if, for example, the sampling location is moved or readings are taken at noon instead of 3pm) are proof that they are "making up" climate change rather than proof that accuracy is important in science and yes the data shows the planet is still warming up.
If through some insane series of circumstances George W. Bush was running against Trump, as the democratic nominee, would you have this same attitude to criticism of him?
If they want more rights that begins with following International law on any occasions. Rejecting terrorism. Putting your soldiers in uniform. Freeing hostages. Not targeting innocent people every single day with indiscriminate rocket attacks.
Apart from the fact that they do have uniforms for soldiers (except for during that little hospital "operation" some months back), you see that Israel is guilty of all of this too, right?
Eg being held in "administrative detention" without charge is being held hostage, harming or threatening innocent civilians so they put pressure on their government is terrorism. Killing AI-identified "targets" while they're at home with their families because it's easier is targeting innocent people every day. And withholding the necessities of life from civilians on purpose is against international law. Nice uniforms though yeah.
Should we take away Israelis' rights by your logic? Or should we not punish innocents for the actions of people who claim to speak for them?
Basic rights are not conditional. Not sure how I can explain that to you if you don't understand that already. Jesus christ.
Again, nothing to do with war, NOT prisoners of war. Hostages by another name. How did you not know about this?
They are actual war criminals for all intents and purposes, and in all pursuits. War crimes are never punished in Gaza Israel, often rewarded, always revered.
Also true this way around. Israel has been committing war crimes for 7 months straight now.
Like you totally ignored all points of fact raised by me and didn't even know that Israel detains Palestinians without charge all the time outside of active war?
I'll tell you why I didn't fight you on these points: the topic of conversation is Palestinian statehood. NOT Hamas. What you are doing is classic hasbara bullshit, if in doubt and people start talking about human rights for Palestinians, shift the conversation to Hamas. You think or at least imply that the actions of a few can detract from the need for basic rights for every single human being. As I said, if that was the case then Israelis lose them too.
And guess what? Hamas are terrorists and I agree they are shit. Now if you could face up to the various despicable crimes of Israel we might actually get somewhere here.
Sorry did you just totally ignore the administrative detention thing? We can talk about this stuff afterwards. Do you see how these people are hostages?
I shared this link with you a couple of messages back. Do you agree that being imprisoned indefinitely, not during an explicit time of war (ie it has happened for many many years now, these are not prisoners of war) and with NO CHARGE is equivalent to being a hostage?
Listen I can totally face up to the war crimes. There have been many.
Thank you. This is very bad and I'm sure you can see that not all have been punished, in fact I think the WCK attack is one of the only ones recently that have?
But Israel is still allowed at the UN. They should be in the UN despite all of the (IMO) horrendous things that the country is doing and has done. Since Hamas would not be the representatives of Palestine at the UN (so complaining about them is not relevant), why should Palestine not have full UN membership? Why do they not deserve a proper seat at the table?
It would be like saying Israel doesn't deserve membership because settlers are terrorists and the IDF and the current government supports them. I don't understand how you can apply the logic to Hamas and Palestine but not there?
If you answer nothing else, please answer this: do you think that the state of Palestine has the right to exist?
Gaza is not forfeit, it can be rebuilt. But anyway, if you agree to a state in the West Bank, then you should have no problem with Palestine having full UN membership, right?
the West only sends money if Hamas tricks enough human shields into being "martyred."
This comes across dehumanizing and frankly, disgusting. They are not "shields" by living in their fucking houses. They didn't build the tunnels did they? Why should they die because of them?
Membership in the United Nations is open to all other peace-loving states which accept the obligations contained in the present Charter and, in the judgment of the Organization, are able and willing to carry out these obligations.
Literally would be possible if not for the US's veto.
They shouldn't die because of tunnels. They should evacuate and get somewhere there isn't tunnels.
Aren't there tunnels basically all over? And how the hell would they know where there aren't tunnels? Leave your home and go to the middle of nowhere amidst constant bombing and chaos with thousands of others so Israel can bomb it's way down to subterranean tunnels?
"Your apartment block has been marked for destruction, please climb over the bodies of your neighbours and calmly make your way to the designated safe zone... by which we mean the zone that is probably safe for now"
Some dystopian shit right there. Everyone went to Rafah and now look
Nobody is trading them for anything stop calling them hostages. Call them detainees. As usual the claim you've made against Israel is wildly exaggerated.
We can break down the terminology issue.
We have people who are not charged with any crime (ie innocent), who are taken against their will and held in captivity until their captor either decides to let them go or somebody breaks them out.
We could call it anything we want. "Innocent people held by someone/an organisation against their will." Both the Israelis taken on October 7th and the Palestinians held without charge are "Innocent people held by someone/an organisation against their will." The same thing has happened to them.
So do we call them all hostages or all detainees?
They couldn't play nice in the neighborhood without helping trying to blow anything up so they don't get to play outside with their friends.
You're a lawyer, right? Is this a fair description of someone who is not charged with a crime?
We're speaking of people held without charge under administrative detention. It falls short of rote internment only by the fact that it's intended to and generally is reasonably temporary. Read your own article. It's like a revolving door.
Yeah I did read it. It's often for longer than 6 months and even longer than a year, I even saved this graph to show you...
Since 2017 there has generally been 200+ in for longer than 6 months, sometimes much more. Each order lasts up to 6 months so it's not so short, in fact Hamas' hostages released in the cease fire a while back had been there much less time. I don't think that makes it OK in either case. Like the hostages still there now are like the Palestinians who've had their detention extended once.
These folks aren't accused, they are suspects albeit still being investigated, but there's enough suspicion to justify holding them longer than what would be typical in the usual criminal setting
Except this evidence isn't shared so how do we know this? Imo if there's no charge and you hold someone for a long time (over 48 hour seems reasonable) then these people are simply hostages. Like if Hamas said that the current hostages are suspected of aiding the IDF in "criminal" activity and provided no details would that be acceptable to you? It would not be to me.
I hate what this administrative detention means to well-founded, hard-won notions of fairness and justice
Absolutely, as everyone should.
I know there's no justice for those wrongly caught up in it. That doesn't make it unjustified.
I mean by definition it kind of does make it unjustified. Nobody, Israel and Hamas both included, has the right to keep people captive without charge. An opaque military justice system and evidence-free accusations don't make what Israel is doing in any way justified.
Paragraph three is what I'm citing for the proposition that Israel is redeemable. Their government has a Supreme Court and in it exists a right of habeas corpus.
Absolutely it is redeemable if it releases the "Innocent people held against their will" immediately and gives restitution as you said. Until that day this is functionally identical to what Hamas did, imo.
Interesting article, thanks for sharing! Whst happens to these people disgusts me, truly.
Israel-Gaza war live: Israel warns it could take Lebanon ‘back to the Stone Age’ as defence minister wraps up Washington trip ( www.theguardian.com )
TIL that the song from the time machine episode was a parody of "Zager And Evans - In The Year 2525" ( youtube.com )
UN tells Israel it will suspend aid operations across Gaza without improved safety, UN officials say ( apnews.com )
Netanyahu says he won’t agree to a deal that ends the war in Gaza, testing the latest truce proposal ( apnews.com )
Israeli army strapped wounded Palestinian to jeep ( www.bbc.com )
640 Palestinian children detained in West Bank since October 7 ( www.newarab.com )
The Israeli army has arrested and beaten children as young as seven in the West Bank amid its indiscriminate war on Gaza....
Gaza's broken water system crippling children with sickness ( www.bbc.com )
Eight months of war have reduced nine-year-old Yunis Jumaa to skin and bone....
Blinken says some of Hamas’ proposed changes to a cease-fire plan in Gaza are workable and some not ( apnews.com )
18+ (NSFW) Israel releases film of women soldiers being taken by Hamas on Oct. 7 ( www.reuters.com )
The footage shows the young women, all of them stunned and some bloodied, being bound and bundled into a jeep....
Gaza detainees shackled, blindfolded and in nappies at Israel hospital ( www.bbc.com )
Medical workers in Israel have told the BBC that Palestinian detainees from Gaza are routinely kept shackled to hospital beds, blindfolded, sometimes naked, and forced to wear nappies – a practice one medic said amounted to “torture”....
Netanyahu angrily rejects move to seek his arrest, lambasts the ICC saying it has compared Israel to "mass murderers" ( www.bbc.com )
Israel kills more than 500 Palestinians in the West Bank since October 7 ( www.aljazeera.com )
That toll is more than three times the number of Palestinians killed in the West Bank in 2022....
UN says total number of deaths in Gaza remains unchanged after controversy over revised data ( www.cnn.com )
The total number of dead also does not include the approximately 10,000 people who are still missing and trapped under the rubble, the officials added....
UN assembly approves resolution granting Palestine new rights and reviving its UN membership bid ( apnews.com )