A PR disaster: Microsoft has lost trust with its users, and Windows Recall is the straw that broke the camel's back ( www.windowscentral.com )

It's a nightmare scenario for Microsoft. The headlining feature of its new Copilot+ PC initiative, which is supposed to drive millions of PC sales over the next couple of years, is under significant fire for being what many say is a major breach of privacy and security on Windows. That feature in question is Windows Recall, a new AI tool designed to remember everything you do on Windows. The feature that we never asked and never wanted it.

Microsoft, has done a lot to degrade the Windows user experience over the last few years. Everything from obtrusive advertisements to full-screen popups, ignoring app defaults, forcing a Microsoft Account, and more have eroded the trust relationship between Windows users and Microsoft.

It's no surprise that users are already assuming that Microsoft will eventually end up collecting that data and using it to shape advertisements for you. That really would be a huge invasion of privacy, and people fully expect Microsoft to do it, and it's those bad Windows practices that have led people to this conclusion.

modifier ,

You can only piss on our faces and tell us it is raining for so long.

FilthyShrooms ,

"It's raining, I see" says the blind man as he pisses into the wind

CaptPretentious ,

This is status quo for every large corporation. Microsoft, Apple, Amazon, EVERY SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORM, Roku.... They all, ALL, push boundaries to see what they can get away with to not only sell you something, but also make you the thing they sell. Sometimes they're bold enough to make it public what they're doing, sometimes, it's a leak that happens when people find out how little the company actually cares about it's users (Apple, so many user data leaks).

Shelbyeileen ,
@Shelbyeileen@lemmy.world avatar

My bigger concern is that almost every company now has it in their contracts/terms of services, that all users are not allowed to participate in a lawsuit, be it class action, or court case against them Most of them even have a maximum sue limit too! There's a lot that have a rule that initial arbitration cannot have a lawyer, but that won't be enforced.

Aecosthedark ,

Is that a valid and enforceable clause though, even if i clicked "i agree"?

asdfasdfasdf ,

It should be illegal to include unenforceable clauses in any TOS or contract since it deceitfully implies it means something.

TheOakTree ,

I love it when Apple pushes advertising that touts their focus on privacy... when in reality, they're breaching user privacy in all the ways that every other company does.

dan ,
@dan@upvote.au avatar

A big reason Apple focuses on privacy and apps not being able to track the user is because they want to keep all that data for themselves. None of the restrictions they've introduced apply to first-party apps. It gives them ad targeting data that no other company can collect. They do have their own ad network (for things like ads in the App Store), and last I heard, they wanted to expand it.

padge ,

The day Windows 10 loses support is the day I primary (or solo) boot Linux on my gaming desktop. The more news I read the more certain I am in this.

Olgratin_Magmatoe ,

Why wait?

phoenixz ,

And yet again, install Linux. Leave Microsoft behind

CaptPretentious ,

You mean like Ubuntu , who put adds in as well.

Tywele ,
@Tywele@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Choose a different distro then.

CaptPretentious ,

That's not a valid argument.

So someone looking to buy a new machine has a few options. They have MacOS, Windows, Chromebook, or Linux. And there's a high probability that when they're at a shop be it online or in person looking for a Linux machine it's probably going to be Ubuntu.

You don't get to tell the user, "well you picked the wrong distro, lol" when all they wanted was something that runs the software and hardware they want. The vast majority of users want something that just works, not have to become some expert.

And also, it's rather dismissive, I show an example of Linux doing the same thing that Apple and Microsoft do... Ubuntu is still Linux.

mypasswordis1234 ,
@mypasswordis1234@lemmy.world avatar

Users have the right to choose the Linux distribution that best suits their needs. Different Linux distributions offer different features and user experiences. To downplay these differences and claim that all distributions are the same is ignorant. Anyone who wants to get the most out of Linux should be aware of the wealth of options available.

It's like buying shoes - if someone says they're too tight, you can say, “You picked the wrong size, lol.” Each pair of shoes is different in many ways.

So, if you can't understand that different Linux distributions provide different experiences, it's better for you to stick with Windows, which offers a uniform experience, and not argue about it.

CaptPretentious ,

To downplay these differences and claim that all distributions are the same is ignorant. Anyone who wants to get the most out of Linux should be aware of the wealth of options available.

That's the definition of not being user friendly. And it's not like shoes. Because trying on a pair of shoes takes minutes, at a store that generally has hundreds of shoes available. And shoes literally do one thing. Your average user does not have nor want to spend nights and weekends troubleshooting the distro they're 'trying out' to see if it works best, then to continue troubleshooting it down the road.

But I do like how you ignored a lot of what of what I said, because it didn't fit your response. Because unlike you apparently, I think of people besides myself. You also make wild assumptions about me. Should I show you my RHEL installation? CentOS? My Debian servers... I have dedicated hardware and VMs. And I also run Windows. Do I get to have an argument now... do I pass your weird gatekeeping threshold?

And that's still not addressing the circle jerk where far to many people put linux on some pedestal, worship it, and assume their better than everyone because "btw, I use arch". Like every distro isn't going to try to milk as much money out of it as they can if they think they can get away with it. Ubuntu is the most approachable distro (that I'm aware of) and often gets suggested, especially to new uses. Linux is not immune to the problems that plague MacOS or Windows.

cupcakezealot ,
@cupcakezealot@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

I mean 95% of their customers probably don't care or even know what Recall is but...

lazynooblet ,

Yeah this. Fed up with sensationalist headlines that are far from reality. Us Lemmy users have a better understanding of what's going on but we shouldn't be falling for this journalism as it's nonsense.

skulblaka ,
@skulblaka@startrek.website avatar

95% of their customers are businesses, who no, they don't understand that. But their IT department does.

Crashumbc ,

Their IT department also knows the MS isn't going anywhere...

Honytawk ,

And that IT department also knows how to disable it with a single Group Policy

It really is a none issue

rottingleaf ,

I see no broken backs here. People have been composing songs about Bill Gates being a faggot (I'm not homophobic, that was just the climate back then) since he entered the general conscience. Microsoft being both clumsy and criminal has been the butt of too many jokes since Windows 95 at least.

I'm too young to remember anything older than 98SE, but I remember that when XP came out, people were complaining that it's slow ugly shit as compared to 2K, and it felt that if MS doesn't change the general direction, people will remain on older stuff or move to alternatives, Vista was hated so badly that everybody suddenly forgot the hate for XP, 7 was first advertised as something sky cool and impossible, then turned out to be kinda mundane, but usable. Actually with every Windows OS new brand there's an outrage. With every MS big news there's an outrage. They always deliver the opportunity.

TL;DR - Hoping that MS will kill itself is stupid.

dual_sport_dork ,
@dual_sport_dork@lemmy.world avatar

The thing is, during the 95/98/ME/XP/Vista days Microsoft had less competition in the consumer computing space, smart phones weren't really a thing, and a PC was "the" way to get online. Nowadays everyone and their dog has an iPhone or Android device instead, and ever dwindling numbers of people even bother to have a PC anymore. So in modern times, there is a nonzero possibility that on a consumer level at least, Microsoft might finally slide into irrelevance. That's not to say they'll go out of business anytime soon, but they might not be able to remain the Microsoft we've known so far for too many more years.

Nerds use Linux. A lot of people who want to buy an off the shelf computer that "just works" buys a Mac. And everyone else just uses their phone for everything.

Microsoft doesn't actually do anything (except make the XBox, I guess) that non-corporate users give a shit about except "make computer machine go" and "stupid subscription ribbon bar program I need to use to open files work sends me."

This is why M$ has been so gung-ho about their path to enshittification in recent years, I'm sure. This is a profitability thing. They see the writing on the wall that just selling operating system and office suite licenses to rubes is not going to remain a profitable business model much longer. Instead, they have to scrape and datamine and sell adds and push subscriptions and all the rest of it for alternative recurring revenue, because no member of the public will willingly pay for a Windows license anymore. I sure as hell won't... If I need Windows, I'll pirate it. And there's no way they are shifting as many OEM licenses as they were in the early 2000's. People aren't buying computers like that anymore.

gnuplusmatt ,

They make their money in azure now. AzureAD, cloud services, intune (managing win/mac/android even Linux). Windows and office are just hobby projects compared to the revenue those generate.

ultratiem ,
@ultratiem@lemmy.ca avatar

You guys trusted MS before this???

TwilightVulpine ,

A couple years ago it wasn't thoroughly and transparently sucking off every bit of personal data it could get, and gearing up to put adds on the desktop on top of that.

Linkerbaan ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar
Rivalarrival ,

Straw that broke the camel's back? Every vertebra in that camel's back has been smashed with a sledge hammer over the past 30 years.

Windows 95 was the last version I was excited about; Windows 98 SE was the last version of Windows I willingly purchased, and XP was the last one I willingly used. When they announced Win7, I downloaded Ubuntu 6.06, "Dapper Drake". Since then, Windows has only existed on my computers as pirated, virtual machines.

CarbonatedPastaSauce ,

I think Windows 7 was good, and their last decent desktop OS before they started backporting Windows 10 garbage into it late in the lifecycle.

I'm in the same boat as you now. Earlier this year I'd had enough and there was no way I was going from my de-shittified Win10 Enterprise install to Win11. I'm on Tumbleweed for my main PC now.

lightnsfw ,

My job is in the early stages of planning for updating everything to windows 11. I just got my testing VM with it the other day which is my first experience with it and I had an almost physical reaction to how bad the gui looks when I first logged in. I haven't even done anything with it and I already hate it.

On the other hand the Linux VM I set up at home to test my personal stuff out on has been going swimmingly.

spaghettiwestern ,

It's also important to remember that Microsoft has no monetary incentive to force people to use Windows Recall.

With that in mind, there would be no reason for Microsoft to automatically enable Windows Recall in an update down the line. If it does happen, the user will be able to instantly tell thanks to that that visual indicator and turn it off again.

This article is nothing but propaganda. There is huge monetary incentive to force people to use Windows Recall and collect their data, and Microsoft routinely uses Windows Update to enable data collection. They began that practice years ago on Windows 7. It's a ridiculously simple matter for MS to disable the visual indicator and force This Week's Plan on their users to monetize their data.

Windows Central pretends to be critical of plans to enable a feature that can be made into malware by Microsoft in a couple of minutes, but then back peddles and says it can't be done (utter BS) and if it could be, it wouldn't be that bad.

iterable ,
@iterable@sh.itjust.works avatar

Seen gamers install things worse then Recall. So to them they won't care. Unless it hurts their latency or fps.

masquenox ,

TIL: There are still people that trust Microsoft.

helenslunch ,
@helenslunch@feddit.nl avatar

As expected, there is no evidence that this is "the straw that broke the camel's back". Don't waste your time reading this article.

MS has been doing this kind of shit for decades and their market share has never changed significantly.

Was it stupid? Yeah. Are people upset? Sure. Is anyone going to do anything about it? No, because the vast majority don't care or they would have stopped using it a long time ago.

Weslee ,

I'm using windows 11 and after hearing about recall and all the other shit they've done, I've finally decided to make the jump to Linux

So for atleast me, this was the final straw

fluckx ,

I had dabbled in gaming on Linux but never made the jump. After reading about recall I spent a week making my choice on OS of choice ( and then I switched a week after :') ).

I'm fully on Linux now. Even if they fully back down from windows recall I dont need an OS that's trying to sell me something based on whatever I do in it.

It was my final straw as well.

Edit: and it hasn't really been bad either. The shader compilation after every gfx driver update is a bit annoying. That's about it.

I'll probably run into something at one point. Like some anti cheat that doesn't work and is preventing me from playing the game.

Macaroni_ninja ,
@Macaroni_ninja@lemmy.world avatar

Im in similar scenario. Which distro you decided on?

fluckx ,

I ended up with nobara ( KDE ). Though if i had to reinstall I might give bazzite a go.

No hate for nobara though. It's working fine gaming wise. Had a gfx issue once after an update, which was resolved by just running the nobara system updater.

I have some issues getting devpods to work. But that is completely unrelated to gaming :D

sgtgig ,

A couple people recommended Fedora spins but I'd recommend just sticking with the big distros (that have up-to-date graphics drivers readily available - so not Debian.) A lot of the gaming-focused distros are only saving you a few terminal commands and increase your risk of running into issues; they're good, but they may not be as 100% stable as you'll find in major long-running distros like Fedora or Mint.

I have settled on Fedora with KDE Plasma. Here's basically everything I copy pasted for gaming:

# install steam, discord, nvidia drivers
sudo dnf install https://mirrors.rpmfusion.org/free/fedora/rpmfusion-free-release-$(rpm -E %fedora).noarch.rpm https://mirrors.rpmfusion.org/nonfree/fedora/rpmfusion-nonfree-release-$(rpm -E %fedora).noarch.rpm -y
sudo dnf config-manager --enable fedora-cisco-openh264 -y
sudo dnf update -y
sudo dnf install steam discord akmod-nvidia xorg-x11-drv-nvidia-cuda

# install bluetooth Xbox driver
sudo dnf install git dkms
cd /tmp
git clone https://github.com/atar-axis/xpadneo.git && cd xpadneo
sudo ./install.sh

I also had to enable Legacy X11 App Support through the settings gui so that Discord could receive push to talk presses without having focus.

Macaroni_ninja ,
@Macaroni_ninja@lemmy.world avatar

Sweet, thanks. I want to start something straightforward and so far Mint looks very promising.

Weslee ,

Which distro did you end up on? I've been looking into them and after using steamos on my deck, I think I will go with Bazzite kde

fluckx ,

I ended up with nobara. I might give bazzite a go at one point, but more out of interest. Nobara is treating me just fine!

Bulletdust ,

Edit: and it hasn't really been bad either. The shader compilation after every gfx driver update is a bit annoying. That's about it.

If it's shader compilation under Steam, turn it off in settings. With advancements in graphics drivers and Proton, it really isn't needed anymore.

I disabled it about 12 months ago and haven't noticed any difference in performance whatsoever.

fluckx ,

Huh. Interesting. I'll give that a try too then :)

where_am_i ,

Some, maybe 1-2% of Windows users keep yelling "I'ma switch to Linux". They then try it for a few days and give up.

You didn't matter in the first place, but also you will most likely not make a successful transition anyways.

Delonix ,

Crab

Adderbox76 ,

I get that. And, playing the devil's advocate here....what happens in a couple of years when the time comes to purchase a new Laptop/desktop that comes pre-installed with Windows? Will your current ire and consternation hold up until then, meaning you'll take the effort...long after this current "trust crisis" is over...to install Linux once again. Or, with this current scandal a faint memory from a few years back, will you just kind of shrug and say "Hey...it's there, I might as well just go with it."

I mean no offense, and I by know means want to presume your answer here. But I'd be willing to bet 90% of the people who, in a pique of ire, replace their current windows with a linux distro, won't bother to do the same when they purchase a new laptop down the road.

lightnsfw ,

Installing Linux is a pretty trivial process at this point. Not much additional work beyond what already comes with setting up a new laptop. Especially of you've already done it before.

jaybone ,

Unless it’s arch lol.

kava ,

But I'd be willing to bet 90% of the people who, in a pique of ire, replace their current windows with a linux distro, won't bother to do the same when they purchase a new laptop down the road.

Linux is superior to Windows. Not only do I get more done and faster, I enjoy the process much more. For example, you know AHK? That useful application on Windows where you can make macros?

Well, on base Fedora you have an AHK built right into the system without any modification and you can use shell scripts- aka a real language instead of the wonky AHK language.

That's one example. I can list them off rapid fire but I'd just write a wall of text unnecessarily.

My point is just that Linux is better. I don't use Linux because it's cool or interesting or I'm a hobbyist or anything like that. I use it because it's the better option for the things I do on my computer.

That may be different for you. If you are a graphic designer or a music producer that may be different. But I'm usually in a terminal and Unix is the superior terminal. Windows terminal is such a joke they literally had to port in the Linux terminal through WSL

IzzyScissor ,

the vast majority don’t care or they would have stopped using it a long time ago

It's a little disingenuous to claim people should've stopped using something that hasn't come to market yet. I was looking for other options when they started trying to force me to upgrade to Windows 11, but this absolutely is the last straw that I won't use Windows on my next computer.

octopus_ink ,

the vast majority don’t care or they would have stopped using it a long time ago

Try reading the sentence with this implied bit explicitly added. I'm pretty sure this is what was intended, and is why you are getting the response you are.

the vast majority don’t care (about Microsoft's continuous bullshit) or they would have stopped using it a long time ago

The bit I added is communicated by the context from the preceeding sentence in the original comment:

MS has been doing this kind of shit for decades and their market share has never changed significantly.

rtxn ,

My dad is now pissed at both Microsoft and Adobe, and curious about Linux. If I can find a Lightroom alternative, he might actually switch.

refurbishedrefurbisher ,

Like darktable?

apfelwoiSchoppen ,
@apfelwoiSchoppen@lemmy.world avatar

I haven't found a suitable replacement yet. I know this is somewhat niche but nothing on Linux can do batch management of Keywords as well as Bridge or Lightroom. I wish I knew anything about C to contribute.

accideath ,

Fun fact: I’ve heard the Adobe suite works fairly well in Linux, if you find yourself a version without DRM

58008 ,
@58008@lemmy.world avatar

I wish Linux weren't completely fucking impenetrable for casual users.

Gormadt ,
@Gormadt@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

It's gotten a lot better over the years

When I first tried it (back in 2010) it was pretty rough all around but after trying it again recently due to the whole TPM requirement for Windows 11 I've found it to be really straight forward

Linux Mint is really user friendly and is what I've even put on my grandma's pc

krashmo ,

Your grandma probably hates the fact that you did though. There's a small chance that's not the case but I'd be shocked if she hadn't complained about it many times to other people.

ParetoOptimalDev ,

People who don't understand what an OS is typically use linux mint fine because they just open chrome or Firefox.

zbb ,

Even the casual Zoom meeting is a breeze because of the Flatpak client.

Rolder ,

So you need a whole ass sandbox program just to run Zoom? Hm.

Rekorse ,

You keep making posts that made sense or were accurate 5-15 years ago, thats why you keep getting downvoted.

Pretend you know nothing about linux, and go and try something like Mint, and youll likely have an experience that mirrors the people downvoting you.

Rolder ,

You say that but at the same time there’s a linuxmemes post in my feed right now where people are joking about how broken drivers require an OS reinstall so you know

Rekorse ,

Well why dont you go into that thread and ask those people when the last time that happened was, or how often it happens.

You might just be taking a very old meme too seriously.

Rolder ,

Very old meme that was posted 5 hours ago as of the time of my original comment, hmm

Rekorse , (edited )

Memes get reposted, that one is pretty old.

Also there are distros that are more volatile, but all of the most popular ones are extremely dummy proof and intuitive. See Pop_OS!, EndeavourOS, or Mint for example.

andrew_bidlaw ,
@andrew_bidlaw@sh.itjust.works avatar

It's just a little different nowadays. Like the other user said, they just don't know they have a choice or what to choose and follow whatever they know...

And what was one of the early bolsheviks' regime strongest points? They created schools and made people literate en masse, and did it with their own curriculum. People became less suspective to ex elites and religious propaganda, and became their target audience.

Adobe, Google, MS give discounts and special programs for education because this way people get used to their products. Many local organizations that touch these casual users don't have a real IT department and just flow with what's given, they don't make an informed choice like corporations. And that's probably the place where this switch may even start to begin. A class of students who started with e.g. KDE Plasma would be used to it more than they used to Windows, same with other software. They can already do their homework and play most games. What else do they need?

The sharp corner is to find money to fund select schools to show others it's not scary and makes it even cheaper for them in the long run, maybe some special troubleshooting team to teach them the ropes. I've heard from some users there and on reddit that their computer classes with a geeky teacher who installed Linux is how they've rolled in without a problem.

PerogiBoi , (edited )
@PerogiBoi@lemmy.ca avatar

I figured on my gaming and VR rig that I’d begrudgingly upgrade it to W11 when W10 stopped receiving security updates and support but at this point the recall feature (which will be used to train LLMs regardless of what Microsoft promises or guarantees) has ensured that I never install that kind of spyware as an operating system.

I’d rather spend forever troubleshooting and getting my Valve Index to work with Ubuntu than deal with a giant backdoor.

skillissuer ,
@skillissuer@discuss.tchncs.de avatar

better get W10 LTSC in VM and use it until EOL and beyond, it'll be more privacy friendly this way

pearsaltchocolatebar ,

Using an internet connected OS past EOL is definitely not privacy friendly.

KrapKake ,

He said until EOL. Windows LTSC, the IoT version in particular is supported until 2032.

pearsaltchocolatebar ,

No, he said EOL and beyond

barsquid ,

I would also suggest not Ubuntu, and instead say you should give Bazzite a try. They are specifically interested in gaming with Steam (they even have a spin for running on Steam Deck). They might have already put in the work troubleshooting the distro with your VR gear.

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