istanbullu ,

Didn't Ukraine also ban the opposition party, jail opposition politicians and cancel elections?

yogthos OP ,
@yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

yup

hrosts ,

What is this liberal handwringing? The justness of of fighting off an imperialist invasion doesn't come from adhering to some vague notions of "western values", but from not wanting to be subjected to that violence.

If you truly believe what you insinuate, your support for Palestine is conditional at best, irrational or deceitful at worst. If you don't believe that - then stop being an agitator.

Draedron ,

Defending yourself against an aggressor should only ever be focussed against the agressor, not against civillians not taking part in the war and no person ever should be forced to fight in any war.

hrosts ,

I agree. Ukraine shouldn't do this.

The OP's insinuation, however was not :

Ukraine is doing bad, it should do good

But:

Ukraine is doing bad, it doesn't deserve support

When you go this route, you side with the oppressor.

yogthos OP ,
@yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

Equating the people of Ukraine with the western backed regime is the height of idiocy.

hrosts ,

I am far from equating. Liberation of Ukrainian people must culminate in the destruction of the Ukrainian state, be it western- or Russian-backed, as is the case for all other peoples and states.

On the other hand, destruction of only Ukraine serves only their imperialist oppressor - Russia.

It's so funny when a liberal crying about "western values" is lecturing me on what constitutes idiocy.

davel ,
@davel@lemmy.ml avatar

It’s so funny when a liberal crying about “western values” is lecturing me on what constitutes idiocy.

Yogthos is not defending Western/liberal values, he is pointing out the hypocrisy of liberalism.

Liberation of Ukrainian people must culminate in the destruction of the Ukrainian state, be it western- or Russian-backed, as is the case for all other peoples and states.

Yes.

On the other hand, destruction of only Ukraine serves only their imperialist oppressor - Russia.

Russia is not predominantly an imperialist state at the moment, though it is a capitalist state which should ultimately be destroyed. And being a capitalist state, in time it may well develop into a full-throated imperialist state. To elaborate I’ll copypasta myself:

Honest question from a non-communist, based on your reply here. Does one need to support Putin to be a Marxist?

In a word, no. In a few more words, support for Russia (not Putin, as historical materialists don’t subscribe to great man theory) is only a partial, temporary, tactical one, in the context of imperialist liberation. Russia is still a capitalist state, though, so it’s a two stage strategy: first liberate colonized bourgeois states from colonizer states, and second revolution within those liberated bourgeois states.

Russia is an interesting case: it has already liberated itself from the post-Soviet “shock therapy” neocolonizers. This occurred during Putin’s administration, which is why he is especially hated by the US. So now the support for Russia is in the context of keeping the colonizers from recolonizing it, and supporting Russia to the extent that it helps other states liberate themselves. But Russia isn’t trying to “liberate” Ukraine, at least not all of Ukraine. It’s trying to resolve the genocidal attacks on the people of the Donbas, and it’s trying to resolve the imperialist military expansion at its border.

hrosts ,

Yogthos is not defending Western/liberal values, he is pointing out the hypocrisy.

Appeal to hypocrisy is one of the lowest, filthiest of arguments, used by trolls, propagandists and hacks of all allegiances. You didn't make him look much better.

Russia is not predominantly an imperialist state

Russian war against Ukraine is a textbook example of an imperialist war - a plunderous attempt to cut up and consume, annex a smaller neighbor in order to expand the sphere of influence of Russian capital, to turn back the losses of the 2010s, when Ukraine escaped, though not unscathed, the clutches of the Russian bourgeoisie in favor of apparently more appealing clutches of the US and EU capital.

Russia is also a colonial power, which you seem to disregard in favor of the following:

Russia is an interesting case: it has already liberated itself from the post-Soviet “shock therapy” neocolonizers.

Positioning the victory of Russian owning class in the act of class warfare which was the shock therapy, calling it and the following consolidation of power by the national bourgeoisie a "liberation" is just disgusting.
It was class war, first and foremost. It could give birth to a neocolonial relationship, if it "succeeded" - but it did not. It was a boost for the capital class, which then metastasized into the current liberal turned fascist regime.

It's also funny to me how you completely disregard oppressor part, which is as important as the imperialist part.

In a word, no. In a few more words, support for Russia is only a partial, temporary, tactical one

So, lesser evilism? Russia is definitely a smaller evil, but I'm not sure how it's a lesser one. I might be biased though, given Russia's desire to eradicate me.

It’s trying to resolve the genocidal attacks on the people of the Donbas

There were 25 civilian deaths on both sides during the whole of 2021; large portion of them due to mines and other wartime remains. The claims of genocide in Donbas are some of the most blatant lies there, and you should be ashamed of yourself for ever uttering them.

By ignoring the imperialist nature of the invasion, by repeating the position of Russian capital - "the genocide, the aggression, the protection of the motherland against foreign interests" - you inadvertently serve as their lackey.

davel ,
@davel@lemmy.ml avatar

Oh I see, this conversation would just be a repeat of eight months ago, where no successful communist states have ever existed, the USSR was an ethnic cleanser, and Russia today is a fascist state. You also seemed to downplay Ukraine’s Nazi problem.

You were right on at least one account, though: Haz, Maupin, and Hinkle are patsocs and/or nazbol pieces of shit. But I don’t know why you thought anyone on Lemmy/Lemmygrad/Hexbear would give them the time of day. Where did you get that idea?

As for Ukraine’s Nazi problem:

hrosts ,

If you think you can just dump on me a bunch of articles and leave me to piece together what your argument might be or not be, you're wrong.

You said Ukraine is/was doing a genocide. You did not provide any evidence, while ignoring that cries of "national integrity" and "national security" are barely something more than legitimization mechanism for imperialist conflicts and has been such since imperialism existed.

You said Russia is not imperialist, or that Russian invasion is not imperialist, and chose to ignore my actual stated argument.

The Nazis - please make a statement I can argue with.

successful communist states

It's either an oxymoron, or you're begging the question. Also no argument again.

Don't be a lazy fuck and actually argue.

davel ,
@davel@lemmy.ml avatar

No one here seems interested in our opinion, and no one’s going to click on more replies in a three day old post, so bugs-no

shucks ,

What a lame reply.

empireOfLove2 ,
@empireOfLove2@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

What do you mean by "western values Ukraine is defending"? This change doesnt really have anything to do with values, they're running out of resources. And if you think Russia gives the tiniest shit about human and property rights... lol

yogthos OP ,
@yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

Oh this must be that whataboutism we keep hearing about. Meanwhile, I love how running out of resources means it's ok to abandon all your values in the minds of liberals. Mask sure falls off pretty fast.

empireOfLove2 ,
@empireOfLove2@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

So explain, then, what point you're making and what your alternative is? Your initial statement is intentionally vague and seems to have a very direct agenda to make Ukraine look bad by posting this article. And I didn't claim Ukraine expanding its martial law powers was "right", because its not, but it is at least understandable considering how their entire country is teetering on the edge of complete civil collapse (and such restrictions are with precedent, most nations do during wars and even America did restrict a lot of liberties during WWII/vietnam/etc). Sticking to your morals is valiant but pointless if it means you get overrun by those without morals.
But your vague statement seem to think this change makes them worse than Russia.

yogthos OP ,
@yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

The point I'm making is very simple and should be obvious. When the regime has to grab people off the street and force them to fight, then it has no legitimacy. This isn't a case of people willingly defending their country, it's fascist regime backed by the west that's forcing people to die in a senseless war. If you can't understand such basic things then what else is there to say to you.

gladflag ,

So if enough people won’t fight the government should shut down and let the invaders take over? Is that your alternative? Civilisations sometimes need to force people to work for a common good. See also vaccines.

empireOfLove2 ,
@empireOfLove2@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Alright, let's roll with that logic: A sovereign government that violates the sovereignty of it's citizens is illegitimate. Since Ukraine is now violating the sovereignty of it's citizens for wartime mobilization, it is an illegitimate government. That's a sound premise, actually. In a vacuum this would be true.

However, that completely loses the nuance that Ukraine is not the aggressor in this "senseless war". Ukraine did not violate it's citizen's sovereignty, RUSSIA DID by initiating the war of annexation against the sovereign government of Ukraine. By violating the sovereignty of the government, Russia thus violated the sovereignty of every citizen under that government. None of this would have been necessary had the initial aggression not been committed.
So, now extend your argument: Let's go ahead and accuse Ukraine of violating human rights with this expansion of power. You must also do so for Russia, who backed Ukraine into this corner in the first place, and who is also committing infinitely worse violations against the civilian territory they have thus far annexed. Are you willing to do that? Because so far, you haven't.

You seem to be echoing a large number of Russian propaganda points trying to paint Ukraine as some fascist shithole, and not the independent nation being overrun by a expansionist dictatorship that it is. This argument is not in good faith.

yogthos OP ,
@yogthos@lemmy.ml avatar

However, that completely loses the nuance that Ukraine is not the aggressor in this “senseless war”.

Weird, last I checked Ukraine was involved in a war against Donbas since 2014 as even western media reported at the time.

Ukraine did not violate it’s citizen’s sovereignty, RUSSIA DID by initiating the war of annexation against the sovereign government of Ukraine.

And if people of Ukraine wanted to defend the state then they would be voluntarily fighting to do so.

By violating the sovereignty of the government, Russia thus violated the sovereignty of every citizen under that government. None of this would have been necessary had the initial aggression not been committed.

None of that has anything to do with the western sponsored regime in Ukraine forcing people to fight Russia for western interests.

So, now extend your argument: Let’s go ahead and accuse Ukraine of violating human rights with this expansion of power. You must also do so for Russia, who backed Ukraine into this corner in the first place, and who is also committing infinitely worse violations against the civilian territory they have thus far annexed. Are you willing to do that? Because so far, you haven’t.

The premise the west peddles is that Ukraine is defending western values against Russia which is already presumed to be bad. However, if it turns out that Ukraine is doing the same things you claim are bad when Russia is doing, then what values is Ukraine defending exactly?

Turns out this conflict isn't about values it all, it's about whose sphere of influence Ukraine is going to be under.

You seem to be echoing a large number of Russian propaganda points trying to paint Ukraine as some fascist shithole, and not the independent nation being overrun by a expansionist dictatorship that it is. This argument is not in good faith.

Meanwhile, you're making an incoherent argument that doesn't make a lick of sense trying to defend literal fascism in Ukraine.

xionzui ,

Weird, last I checked Ukraine was involved in a war against Donbas since 2014 as even western media reported at the time.

It’s almost like Russia has expressed its desire to annex Ukraine for over a decade now and has been sending disguised military units to create a “resistance” to fabricate a justification for “liberating” parts of Ukraine into Russian territory. Weird… It’s not like they explicitly gave that as one of the 20 conflicting reasons for this invasion or anything

freagle ,

Wow. Conspiracy mind activated. So you think all the civilians Ukraine burned to death in that office building were crisis actors?

robinnn ,
@robinnn@hexbear.net avatar

It literally is a fascist shithole. It’s littered with monuments to Nazis and Nazi collaborators, it’s armed forces are filled with Nazis, its leadership pays homage to Nazi collaborators, and the entire reason we’re in this situation is the US-backed coup in 2014 of which Nazis were the prime domestic force, and which led to the proliferation of Nazi gangs. Ukraine is not an independent nation.

You talk about Russia violating sovereignty, what about the Ukrainian bombing of the Donbas (illegal cluster munitions used) and repeated violations of ceasefires? Russia didn’t invade Ukraine out of the blue, they had specific demands for the end of far-right nationalism, repression of Russian speakers, and NATO expansion (NATO itself being a Nazi collaborationist institution).

davel ,
@davel@lemmy.ml avatar

You seem to be echoing a large number of Russian propaganda points trying to paint Ukraine as some fascist shithole

Edit to add: Usually someone responds with, yeah well Russia has fascists, too, to which I usually respond:

There are Russian fascists. Take Navalny, for example, who the US tried to use in its regime change efforts so that it could resume its neoliberal shock therapy plundering that started under Yeltsin and ended under Putin.

Flatworm7591 ,
@Flatworm7591@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Quoting Internationalist 360° as a reliable source isn't going to win anyone over. And the 'The Hill' article you listed concludes something that is the opposite of what you are claiming:

The odious Russian media tried to paint Ukraine as a land of Nazis, though that is patently wrong. Ukraine has a thriving Jewish community, and its far-right is still on the fringe.

We all understand your point of view, everyone's a Nazi if they are against Russian/Chinese imperialism.

robinnn ,
@robinnn@hexbear.net avatar

Notice that point from "The Hill" has no examples or evidence. It's not relevant; they were citing the examples given not the author's out-of-the-blue conclusion (which can be chalked up to the counter-bias that was the reason it was cited). I have another comment on this post proving that the far-right is not "still on the fringe."

Quoting Internationalist 360° as a reliable source isn't going to win anyone over.

Oh, I see the issue: you don't understand how sources work. They're not citing Internationalist 360° as a reliable source by itself—if you would've read until the end of the article you would've seen that the author provided a list of sources used. The article is simply a summary of the history using those sources.

Please tell me about "Chinese imperialism." I'd love to hear about how Chinese investment in Africa, the only FDI with a positive impact on development, is "imperialism." I'd love to hear how the PRC's claim to Taiwan, despite being accepted by nearly every country on earth and recognized by the UN (and favored upon by the majority of Taiwanese despite no clear support for total reunification, hence its not happening yet when China could conceivably force it upon the population), the US admitting that their cynical support for separatism is only to keep the PRC down, is "imperialism," and in fact Taiwan is an independent state with no relation to China (despite its constitution being the Constitution of the Republic of China, and its president the president of the Republic of China, with the so-called ROC claiming sovereignty over all of the mainland of China, Outer Mongolia, and Russia—see the emblem of the ROC Marine Corps).

ShimmeringKoi ,
@ShimmeringKoi@hexbear.net avatar

https://hexbear.net/pictrs/image/e1a28157-b6aa-4674-adb0-e30e1da2ef03.png

xionzui ,

So basically, a country that is invaded has the option to either roll over and be destroyed or fight back and become “illegitimate” and should be destroyed anyway? Basically an invader has free rein to destroy any country they feel like? That’s some nice victim blaming there. Incredibly abusive thinking.

freagle ,

Who was Ukraine invaded by? Russia only? Or does it count when the USA foments a coup and even sends its regime change agents to oversee the coup, hand picks the successor, and deliberately hand picks someone that will invite the undemocratic nuclear-armed nazi-led transnational NATO to take it's land for military installations? Because as Russia sees it, a nuclear armed military has been marching across Europe to it's Ukrainian border across which Europe has invaded Russia twice. Is NATO allowed to move in as long as the USA coups the leaders who are against it?

Ukraine's legitimacy in the West is founded on the narrative that it's a white Christian democratic freedom loving bastion. When it suspends human rights, bans unions, bans communist parties, shells civilians, attacks civilians bridges with civilians on it, enlists Nazis, celebrates Nazis, honors Nazis, and then just starts grabbing men off the street and sending them to die with no training, it loses that legitimacy. Ukraine must surrender and negotiate a peace deal. The only other option is mass murder of its civilian population through forced consignment in a war of attrition that it is badly losing, has always been losing, and has never had a chance of winning.

Doubledee ,
@Doubledee@hexbear.net avatar

I think one thing that's getting lost in the discussion here is you keep talking about governments as if they are people. Ostensibly liberal states exist to protect human beings and their rights. At the point where "you" have to let "your" values slide in order to deal with "your" existential crisis we are talking about the governent as if it has feelings and its own aspirations that deserve to be treated with the same seriousness we theoretically want to apply to human welfare.

I feel very bad for Ukrainians, to be clear, I think they've been mistreated by the US who used them to try and get one over on an adversary in the knowledge that other people will be the ones dying if it goes poorly. That's certainly very bad.

However you feel about the justice of the invasion, though, we've reached the point where even people who support the war and want Ukraine to win are defining winning as a negotiated settlement where they give up territory. If NATO is not willing to fight Russia directly (clearly they aren't) and continuing the aid to the conflict is not even providing a reasonable way for Ukraine to retain its territory and even cheerleaders who are on the side of Ukraine's government believe they will have to negotiate a settlement then WHY ARE WE NOT PUSHING THAT? More Ukrainians are being expected to die, against their will as you freely acknowledge, for no long term strategic purpose.

The death and destruction from this war is a human tragedy. It will be more tragic if it is prolonged for years only to end in the same way it could have within months.

freagle ,

Uhhh, Russia is a capitalist country, not a socialist one. They absolutely care about property rights because that is what capitalism requires. Russia has no intention of executing land reform any time soon.

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