Hamas official says group would lay down its arms if an independent Palestinian state is established ( apnews.com )

A top Hamas political official told The Associated Press the Islamic militant group is willing to agree to a truce of five years or more with Israel and that it would lay down its weapons and convert into a political party if an independent Palestinian state is established along pre-1967 borders.

bartolomeo ,
@bartolomeo@suppo.fi avatar

Update: it was rejected.

Again.

bartolomeo ,
@bartolomeo@suppo.fi avatar

The charter of Likud says

Between the sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty.

so let's see if Israel chooses security or expansion this time. Every other time they have chosen expansion and a Greater Israel, but hopefully they choose peace this time.

bradorsomething ,

“Best we can do is value menu holocaust.”

sazey ,

Even that they are failing hard at. Despite all the unimaginable cruelty and choicest Western weaponry, all they have succeeded in is causing utter destruction and wholesale slaughter; they have neither decisively defeated Hamas or broken the resolve of a people they have blockaded more or less since 1967. What a bunch of losers.

WamGams ,

I would personally reject this deal.

The Palestinian people do not deserve to live under the rule of Hamas. In 19 years of living under Hamas, after all the money given to them by the US, France, the UK, Qatar, Iran, and even Israel, the only thing they built for the Palestinian people has been tunnels to commit terrorism from.

NoLifeGaming ,

You mean to fight the occupation?

WamGams ,

...can you be more clear about what your comment means in reference to what I said?

unreasonabro ,

"tunnels to commit terrorism from" is hardly objective. Terrorism is what oppressors call fighting for one's freedom, and Israel is invading territory which is not theirs, ergo, your comment appears to be cheering from the wrong side of history. The way your comment stands, it seems to end on a different sentiment than it starts off with.

WamGams ,

Before I engage with a blatantly Pro-Hamas statement, please first explain how Hamas is fighting for the freedom for Palestinians, including women and LGBTQ citizens.

If unable, and you refuse to revise your Pro-Hamas stance, you will immediately be blocked.

n3m37h ,

An anti Israeli (Zionist) stance isn't equal to pro Hamas.

"Hamas was founded by Palestinian imam and activist Ahmed Yassin in 1987, after the outbreak of the First Intifada against the Israeli occupation."

The guy was literally stating what happens during an occupation.

The victors write history

WamGams ,

Unless you are responding under a different account, I am going to give the original commentator a chance to respond and revise his statement.

Claiming that the modern political apparatus of Palestine are mere freedom fighters is a lie, and I will not engage with it.

n3m37h ,

No, not same person.

So in other words you're a Zionist?

GREAT! /s

Every action has a equal and opposite action.
Eg you attack civvies you create 'terrorists' aka Hama's

Israel created a problem that allows them to syphon money from other countries for committing genocide

WamGams ,

I believe both Jews and Palestinians deserve to live in their homeland. If that belief causes a few bad actors supporting Hamas to call me a Zionist as a slur, so be it.

gamermanh ,
@gamermanh@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

I believe both Jews and Palestinians deserve to live in their homeland

Yet your only concern has been for Isreal, the ones doing a genocide.

Excuse us if we don't believe you at all

WamGams ,

You don't know a thing about me or my beliefs and you have zero percent interest in knowing them. Pretending to have that knowledge is your goal here.

gamermanh ,
@gamermanh@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Pretty angry and defensive take when all I did was point out the behaviour you've had in this thread

WamGams ,

The fact that you are accusing me unprovoked of being angry at you leads me to believe your intent in this dialog is to try and make me angry.

Perhaps in your mind anger is the correct response when somebody lies and misconstrues, but you are ignoring the fact that I expect that kind of behavior out of Pro-Hamas accounts.

gamermanh ,
@gamermanh@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Nah, homie, people going "you don't know me or my beliefs" are clearly upset at being called out on their behaviour online, thats why I said you're angry.

Still claiming people you don't agree with are pro-hamas? Pathetic.

WamGams ,

Telling you your presumptions about me are wrong makes me angry?

I don't know, man, I think you are mistaken, but you can't be told nothing, so I guess just keep pretending your life away?

And I believe our dialog started because you took my anti-Hamas stance to mean I was pro-genocide. So I'm just mirroring your own behavior, which yes, I do agree has been pathetic.

JustZ ,
@JustZ@lemmy.world avatar

Haha. Some fight. Millions of people living and dying in poverty and malnourishment so they could do a mass shooting of 1,300 people. They really showed em!

They have zero chance of fighting Israel and the only proper course for Hamas is an unconditional surrender and whatever peace terms Israel will grant them. They should be lucky to get the rights due prisoners of war. Usually you have to put yourself in a uniform to get those rights.

DdCno1 ,

Hamas went all in hoping that once all of the other Muslim nations saw their merry slaughter of Jews, they would happily and immediately join in and attack Israel from all sides to complete the attempted genocide. They forgot about or chose to ignore a few things:

Israel has nukes and would use them if they felt fundamentally threatened, Israel has conventionally defeated every army that has ever attacked them (if sometimes by the skin of their teeth), has made reluctant, but reliable allies out of some of their former enemies and crippled others. Hamas didn't consider that Biden would protect Israel and fully commit to it, they kept the preparations for their attack so secret that only Tehran and Moscow knew about them, but crucially not Hezbollah (which ended up being muzzled by the American carrier groups anyway) and they gave nobody the necessary heads up for the months of buildup required for a full on war, because that would have given the whole thing away. While Hamas skillfully (with Russian and Iranian help) overcame the border defenses, they wasted the element of surprise on random carnage instead of overrunning the same airfields that have since been launching thousands of sorties that are, day by day, obliterating their organization.

And so on and so forth. The entire idea was foolish from the start and had no chance of success. Not that Moscow and Tehran expected any. They just used Hamas as pawns, hoping to weaken the US with this conflict. It's the standard zero sum game that autocrats love to play so much.

ArmokGoB ,

This is the reality no one wants to accept. Either surrender unconditionally, or be ethnically cleansed because it's clear the rest of the world's governments don't care.

JustZ ,
@JustZ@lemmy.world avatar

Yeah, it's clear ethnic cleansing, God of Blood, only 2.06 million of 2.10 million Gazans are left!

ArmokGoB ,

Yeah, and we're 7.5 months into the war. Over all of WWII, the Nazis couldn't kill all of the Jews (and everyone else they were trying to kill) in Europe. Give it time. If they're allowed to keep this up, there will be a more complete ethnic cleansing.

NoLifeGaming ,

The Palestinian cause was already dying and it was only time before they were erased or expunged. What hamas did was revive that cause, even if you don't agree with them killing civilians (which i dont either). Most Palestinians were already living in terrible conditions and not because of hamas but because of the israel blockade of gaza. Which rendered it essentially to concentration camp.

The 1300 figure wasnt all by hamas. And from what we know so far about 300 were soliders, 300 were killed by israel themselves in the crossfire, and 300 were indeed civilians.

So far hamas has done pretty good for it self and has made some losses for israel. At the very least you can see its not a victory for israel.

JustZ ,
@JustZ@lemmy.world avatar

Bud anyone that died in the chaos on October 7 was killed by Hamas. That's how criminal culpability works.

The blockade too was caused by Hamas and its ideological allies and predecessors. Every fucked up thing about Gaza in 2024 is traceable to poor decisions by their own leadership. They turned every public institution into instrumentalities of international terrorism. Hamas is the enemy. It's sad they have used psychotic interpretations of Islam to convince apparently significant portions of the Gazans public that Martyrdom™ is a civic duty, like where a legitimate state might have jury service or voting, but an evil, fanatical thing, not civic at all.

gamermanh ,
@gamermanh@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Every fucked up thing about Gaza in 2024 is traceable to poor decisions by their own leadership

What a disgusting lack of knowledge of the areas history, wow

theluckyone ,

By your logic, Israel's government is just as culpable: https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/

Passerby6497 ,

I would personally reject this deal.

The Palestinian people do not deserve to live under the rule of Hamas.

Instead, they deserve to live under the genocidal tyranny of Israel. Clearly that's the much better choice.

WamGams ,

Why do all of you message me specifically to use the same dishonest bad faith debate tactics?

Keeponstalin ,

The Israeli imposed closure on Gaza began in 1991, temporarily, becoming permanent in 1993. The barrier began around Gaza around 1972. After the 'disengagement' in 2007, this turned into a full blockade; where Israel has had control over the airspace, borders, and sea. Under the guise of 'dual-use' Israel has restricted food, allocating a minimum supply leading to over half of Gaza being food insecure; construction materials, medical supplies, and other basic necessities have also been restricted. This has been a deliberate tactic of De-development.

Gaza Policy Forum summary: Experts agree that Israel’s dual-use policy causes acute distress

Through 1993 Israel imposed a one-way system of tariffs and duties on the importation of goods through its borders; leaving Israel for Gaza, however, no tariffs or other regulations applied. Thus, for Israeli exports to Gaza, the Strip was treated as part of Israel; but for Gazan exports to Israel, the Strip was treated as a foreign entity subject to various “non-tariff barriers.” This placed Israel at a distinct advantage for trading and limited Gaza’s access to Israeli and foreign markets. Gazans had no recourse against such policies, being totally unable to protect themselves with tariffs or exchange rate controls. Thus, they had to pay more for highly protected Israeli products than they would if they had some control over their own economy. Such policies deprived the occupied territories of significant customs revenue, estimated at $118-$176 million in 1986. (Arguably, the economic terms of the Gaza—Jericho Agreement modify the situation only slightly.)

  • page 240

In a report released in May 2015, the World Bank revealed that as a result of Israel’s blockade and OPE, Gaza’s manufacturing sector shrank by as much as 60 percent over eight years while real per capita income is 31 percent lower than it was 20 years ago. The report also stated that the blockade alone is responsible for a 50 percent decrease in Gaza’s GDP since 2007. Furthermore, OPE (com- bined with the tunnel closure) exacerbated an already grave situation by reducing Gaza’s economy by an additional $460 million.

  • Page 402

The Gaza Strip: The Political Economy of De-Development - Third Edition by Sara M. Roy

WamGams ,

What specifically in this wall of text is a direct response to what I said?

frazorth ,

All you said was complete stupidity. 19 years of rule under Hamas only produced terrorist tunnels?

All of that is a direct response to 30+ years of Israeli genocide.

WamGams ,

Building tunnels as the sole piece of infrastructure for your people is the sole response to a 30 year genocide?

I don't think that is true, and I don't believe you think that is true either. It sounded good when you said it though, and I'm sure it felt even better.

frazorth ,

the only thing they built for the Palestinian people has been tunnels to commit terrorism from.

I wasn't the one who said that tunnels were the only thing they have done, that was literally you. But it's also irrelevant because I wouldn't expect any infrastructure works to be prioritised when a small country is under attack.

When the IRA demanded their land back, we were allowed to agree with their cause of no occupation without saying that their tactics of bombing trains was a good thing.

When the LTTE violently attacked Sri Lanka, people were allowed to feel for the ongoing Tamil persecution, without agreeing to the murdering.

Why can't I say that Hamas is a product of its environment, caused by the pain that Israel creates while also saying that the actions of Hamas are terrible.

WamGams ,

The money never made its way to the Palestinian people, is the point.

Where did it go?

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

The Palestinian people do not deserve to live under the rule of Hamas. In 19 years of living under Hamas, after all the money given to them by the US, France, the UK, Qatar, Iran, and even Israel, the only thing they built for the Palestinian people has been tunnels to commit terrorism

An independent Palestinian state would give the Palestinian people a chance to throw off the yoke of Hamas.

WamGams ,

I don't believe that. Right wing fuckheads with weapons don't generally give up their power, especially after they had already taken away the right to vote.

A lot of dead Palestinians will be on your hands if you are wrong here. The price of being wrong is too high for me to agree with you, though I wish I could.

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

I don’t believe that. Right wing fuckheads with weapons don’t generally give up their power, especially after they had already taken away the right to vote.

Man, if the choice is "right-wing fuckheads in a sovereign and potentially functional state" and "right-wing fuckheads in a Bantustan that's currently being genocided by a foreign country, boosting the popularity of said right-wing fuckheads", I think the choice is obvious.

WamGams ,

I'm not personally willing to settle for a choice between genocides Palestinians or Jews, and with Hamas in power, you are going to get both.

If Hamas wants to prove me wrong, and responsibly lead their people, maybe their political apparatus should stop being cowards, leave their Qatari skyscraper, and return to Palestine, and prove they want the responsibility of leading a nation.

They don't want that. Stop taking terrorists at their word just because they are the underdog.

gimpchrist ,
@gimpchrist@lemmy.world avatar

So if the Hamas terrorists are in Qatar why is Israel bombing Palestine

WamGams ,

I ask myself the same thing.

gimpchrist ,
@gimpchrist@lemmy.world avatar

Right-wing fuck heads with weapons? You mean like israel? And you say the price of being wrong is too high for you to agree with someone.... there is no price for you!!!!! You live in comfort, not being bombed everyday. You're an armchair critic who pays not 1 ounce of a price for your dumb opinion.

WamGams ,

The price is more dead Palestinians and Jews.

And no offense, but you aren't paying that cost either. Doesn't mean we deny the cost will be paid.

tocopherol ,
@tocopherol@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Hamas has been given millions of dollars by Israel over the years while any other potential political group has been surpressed. Without Israel they may actually have a chance at forming alternative groups. There is already the blood of nearly 40,000 Palestinians on our hands.

WamGams ,

You might have blood on your hands, but I don't.

Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In ,

The Palestinian people do not deserve to live under the rule of Hamas

Depends. Does conversion to a political party imply free elections and opposition parties to exist?

WamGams ,

Which terror groups that took full power restored the right to vote after having already stripped their people of that right?

Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In ,

A terror group with full power is no longer a terror group.

WamGams ,

So.. You concede that there are no terror orgs who have expanded the rights of the people they control?

Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In ,

The basis of your statement is nonsensical.

Terror organisations don't control the rights of people. (If they did, then terrorism would not be needed)

WamGams ,

Which is why they won't be handed autonomy over Palestine.

Glad we are in agreement.

theacharnian ,

After Ireland gained independence they fought a civil war. Same in countless outer places. The Greeks fought one while fighting for independence. I fully expect the Palestinians to do the same.

The thing is: the Israelis don't get to decide any of this. That what independence from Israel means.

Tryptaminev ,

Ahh yes. Reject the deal, continue the starvation and murder of thousands and thousands of Palestinians by Israel. Because what would be more liberating than being murdered?

I see statements like "Free Gaza from Hamas" to justify the continued genocide. It is no suprise, given that the Nazis wrote "Arbeit macht frei". "Work makes free",

Twisting genocide into claiming it to be a liberation of the people they are genociding. Now i am not sure, if you belong to these bad faith people, but if you wonder, why you are getting backlash, it is because your statement seems to be advocating for that.

WamGams ,

Why do you automatically assume somebody who is anti-Hamas is pro-war?

Probably so you have an excuse to call people Nazis.

I won't be engaging with that nonsense. You can message again with an intent of more respectful dialog or you can be blocked.

Tryptaminev ,

If you are not arguing in bad faith, then you should acknowledge the consequences and the context of "not taking a deal from Hamas". And these consequences are continued death and destruction. You didn't address that context. Which is why i provided the context of these kind of statements by people using these stances in bad faith.

Phegan ,

They also do not deserve to live under an Israeli genocide.

assassin_aragorn ,

I mean yeah, but why can't we have a two state solution that gets rid of Hamas as a governing authority and also stops genocide?

WamGams ,

The thing you will notice about these accounts is that they aren't actually allowed to make unqualified anti-Hamas statements.

Because they almost certainly aren't real accounts.

roguetrick ,

Everyone who thinks different than me are not human.

WamGams ,

Clearly humans are operating the accounts, friend.

Are you being forced to jump to the defense of Pro-Hamas accounts, or is it a hobby?

roguetrick ,

Oh, it's just that everyone that thinks different than you is under duress huh? Or paid? I guess I'm that case I don't think you're being vacuous.

WamGams ,

I have probably 15 accounts in my inbox accusing me, an explicitly pro-Palestinian person, of being pro-genocide, because I have made anti-Hamas comments. You being one of them.

Perhaps you have a better explanation. Is the movement so full of idiots who can't differentiate between Hamas and the Palestinian people, or is something else happening here? You tell me.

roguetrick ,

The level of irony here is quite amusing. You're complaining that you're being accused of things you aren't by saying that I'm accusing you of things I didn't.

WamGams ,

You are in my inbox defending the accounts I mentioned.

roguetrick ,

Must be a grand conspiracy right?

WamGams ,

I think more intelligence would be on display in these accounts if the conspiracy was grand.

prole ,
@prole@sh.itjust.works avatar

Hey it's you again... Getting paid overtime this weekend I hope

WamGams ,

Probably thr same rate as you. Though somebody told me they aren't actually paying you, just offering vague promises of virgins in the afterlife.

prole ,
@prole@sh.itjust.works avatar

Lol there is no afterlife my guy. So ain't no promise of virgins is going to convince me to do anything.

Why would I want to fuck virgins anyway? I'd prefer the ladies be somewhat experienced... Otherwise it's boring.

I wouldn't accept payment for this, I have a real job that's actually productive and makes peoples' lives better in tangible ways. That's enough for me. This is just bonus.

Maybe that's just a "leftist" attitude that you can't comprehend.

WamGams ,

Are Pro-Hamas tankies actually part of the left though? I don't know, man, so far I would say you are severely too rightwing for me.

Maggoty ,

Before people go off about them being evil, how much worse would it be if you tried? If it fails you're just back in the same place. If it works then you have peace.

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

Before people go off about them being evil, how much worse would it be if you tried? If it fails you’re just back in the same place.

Alright, while on a moral level this offer would be definitely the right thing to accept (ASSUMING complete good faith), it could be much, MUCH worse. Hamas has shown a willingness and ability to commit to large-scale attacks on Israel - considering the long, long history of antisemitic and genocidal rhetoric Hamas officials have engaged in, "Five years of not disrupting an enemy's plans and organization" is a five-year recipe for an even-better coordinated and funded attack.

Knock_Knock_Lemmy_In ,

Follow the North Ireland model independent verification of compliance (on both sides).

theacharnian ,

The Hamas guy in the OP is literally talking about how they would lay down arms and become a party. IRA to Sinn Fein.

(Will there be splinter hardliners? Sure! There is a civil war at the end of Independence. But there is a promise of peace after the civil war.)

Linkerbaan ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Great news, too bad israel has zero interest in a Palestinian state nor peace. Israel wants to ethnically cleanse all Palestinians and expand their Lebensraum That much has been fully proven over the last six months.

With Biden sending 26 Billion dollars to reimburse all the costs of this Genocide, without strings attached, it's clear that the path forward for israel is to now fully commit to their Gaza Holocaust.

InformalTrifle ,

The “genocide” would halt immediately if Hamas returned the hostages and surrendered themselves. Hamas has zero interest in that, and the Palestinians have zero interest in that.

Linkerbaan ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

No israel has only said they will do a 6 week temporary pause and then continue the Genocide your claim is false.

This article is more than 2 months old - Netanyahu rejects Gaza ceasefire deal and says victory is ‘within reach’

Benjamin Netanyahu has rejected the terms of a ceasefire in Gaza proposed by Hamas and rebuffed US pressure to move more quickly towards a mediated settlement to the war, saying there could be no solution to Israel’s security issues except “absolute victory” over the militant group.

Furthermore israel is currently also committing Genocide in the West Bank. Do you blame Hamas and hostages for that too?

InformalTrifle ,

I stand corrected. Makes sense if you’re close to wiping them out. Otherwise you go back to the previous situation.

Do you have evidence for a genocide in the West Bank? Thought not.

Linkerbaan ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

More than 2 months old

Yeah they're real close. Just a few more years and they'll get there.

Israel just committed Genocide in a hospital in north-Gaza which they claimed to have already conquered because Hamas popped up. So even the areas they claimed to have under control were not under control.

Israel announces largest West Bank land seizure since 1993 during Blinken visit

InformalTrifle ,

It must be difficult to stay in control with the tactics Hamas use, not caring at all about civilian lives, using human shields, suicide bombs, fighting from civilians buildings etc.

The IDF probably knows far more about that than we do

Linkerbaan ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

So you're still defending IDF and israel now that all of the Hasbara got debunked.

InformalTrifle ,

So you’re still defending jihadists and their supporters

NoLifeGaming ,

Oct 7th would've never happened if israel didn't treat the Palestinians like human animals. If your excuse they hide terrorists whats your excuse for how they treat Palestinians in the west Bank where hamas isn't a thing?

InformalTrifle ,

ISF reported 305 shooting attacks committed in or emanating from the West Bank in 2022, more than triple the attacks (91) recorded in 2021. In press reports, Israeli officials described these incidents as terror attacks

Hamas may not be based in the West Bank but other Islamic terrorists certainly are, and Hamas is certainly widely supported there.

Where do you live? How would you treat neighbouring countries that rocket attacked you constantly and wanted you wiped out in the name of their religion?

If anything Israel showed significant restraint prior to October

NoLifeGaming ,

come to another persons land

steal their land and homes

kill their children and rape their women

humiliate their people

surprised pickachu face when they get radicalized and fight back

I dont endorse the extreme actions of hamas or any other group. But lets get something straight are you saying that all the oppression Palestinians face can be explained away by extremeist groups? Do you reject all the accounts of human rights organizations which have documented the plight of the Palestinians? And do you condemn the actions of israel?

InformalTrifle ,

It’s a tragedy whats happening to civilians in Palestine. Hamas needs to be destroyed and I hope Israel can minimise further collateral damage. (Though it must be exceptionally difficult with the tactics Hamas use)

But I hold the jihadist organisation Hamas (that still has widespread support) fully responsible for this tragedy, as I would hold the Nazis responsible for German civilian deaths.

SwingingTheLamp ,

Wat?

The genocide has been on-going in slow motion for decades, so there's not chance in hell that Israel would stop, no matter what Hamas does. It's baked into the country's political system: It can't have a one-state solution and remain a Jewish ethno-state, and it can't have a two-state solution because the settlers are a vital part of the governing coalition. The only solution that Israeli politics can allow is to remove the people of Palestine. I'm sure they'd be happy with ethnic cleansing, but no other country can practically take in that many refugees, so the final solution is to simply kill them, which the IDF has shown no hesitation to do.

Son_of_dad ,

With them on top of that new state? There will never be peace as long as Netanyahu and Hamas are in power. They all need to go

Linkerbaan ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

It's interesting how you select one person from the israeli government but all of Hamas.

Hamas is far more peaceful than israel. They have proven this in 2018 with their peaceful march. The problem is that israel does not respond to words.

theotherverion ,
@theotherverion@lemmynsfw.com avatar

No hamas is anything but peaceful lol.

apfelwoiSchoppen ,
@apfelwoiSchoppen@lemmy.world avatar

Hamas is the elected head of a stateless people who's land was stolen by Europeans. You label them terrorists, I label them as justified warriors for the land and genocide to which they have been subjugated.

This isn't a both sides argument, as western media tries again and again to frame every fucking story. This is the oppressed fighting back.

Terrorist labels aren't used for armed forces protecting settlers as they rampage Palestinian villages. Terrorist labels aren't used as hospitals are leveled. Terrorist labels aren't used when they drop leaflets to tell civilians to move to a place to avoid getting shelled and then SHELLING that place. Terrorist labels aren't used when a large percentage of children of a whole People grow up without parents because of mass murder. Terrorism isnt used for the decades of genocide. Decades.

Terrorist labels get used when those children become adults and respond how most of us would respond to the conditions of the open air prison in which they reside and will likely die early. Why on earth would you expect them to be peaceful?

theotherverion ,
@theotherverion@lemmynsfw.com avatar

Yes, we normally elect leaders for 18 years.

Also, please check the definition of terrorism.

Pronell ,

And why haven't they had an election in 18 years? Because they are a subjugated people and Israel won't allow elections.

There are no good sides here, but that's a particularly bad gotcha argument.

theotherverion ,
@theotherverion@lemmynsfw.com avatar

So you are saying that the reason why they haven't had elections in gaza for 18 years is not because hamas tied opposition to cars and dragged them through the streets but a state which has a border with them?

Keeponstalin ,

Living under an Apartheid State with no human or civil rights, subjected to violence Occupying Force on a daily basis, is not 'having a border with them'

Edit:

To clarify, my point is that free and fair elections are impossible under an Apartheid Regime.

Hamas certainly tortures and kills political rivals, and has been exposed for corruption. In addition, Fatah is also corrupt, seen as working at the behest of Israel at the expense of Palestinians in East Jerusalem and the West Bank. Both have been funded by Israel as part of a Divide and Conquer tactic. Israel also has a long history of assassinating more moderate and leftist political Palestinian rivals.

Hamas Victory Driven By Desire To End Corruption WPO

Hamas Political Violence in Gaza - HRW 2009

Gaza: Palestinians tortured, summarily killed by Hamas forces during 2014 conflict - Amnesty

Gaza: Journalist facing prison term for exposing corruption in Hamas-controlled ministry - Amnesty

Palestinians furious and fed up with corruption of Abbas's 'mafia' PA - MEE

“Divide and Rule”: How Israel Helped Start Hamas to Weaken Palestinian Hopes for Statehood
 - DemocracyNow

Rise and Kill First: The Secret History of Israel’s Targeted Assassinations – review - The Guardian

theotherverion ,
@theotherverion@lemmynsfw.com avatar

Israel is not in Gaza. I don't know how that is an occupying force.

Keeponstalin ,

Israel has had control of Gaza with the occupation and blockade since 1967, enforcing policies for the de-development of Gaza's economy. The Israeli imposed closure on Gaza began in 1991, temporarily, becoming permanent in 1993. The barrier began around Gaza around 1972.

With the Blockade, Israel controls all the sea, airspace, and border. Fishermen can't fish outside of 6-12 nautical miles before getting arrested or shot. Israel controls all travel in and out of Gaza. Over 60% of people were already food insecure before October 7th because Israel deliberately restricts food entering Gaza. Israel's policies of Water control left everyone in Gaza with half the water of the emergency WHO standards, now significantly less. Internationally, Gaza is recognized as Occupied.

Israel has shut off all food, water, electricity, and aid to Gaza. Because as occupiers they have that power over occupied territories. They've also repeatedly targeted refugee camps, hospitals, safe zones, and aid trucks.

“I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed,” “We are fighting human animals and we are acting accordingly"

  • Minister of Defense - Yoav Gallant

The Gaza Strip: The Political Economy of De-Development - Third Edition by Sara M. Roy

Israel claims it is no longer occupying the Gaza Strip. What does international law say?

The Gaza Strip − why the history of the densely populated enclave is key to understanding the current conflict

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/4738f069-fbe8-447b-914d-14ca4023d403.jpeg

theotherverion ,
@theotherverion@lemmynsfw.com avatar

So Israel has the obligation indefinitely support Gaza?
Also the image you showed is a complete propaganda and a huge amount of facts is missed.

Keeponstalin ,

Israel deliberately decided to occupy Gaza, the West Bank, and East Jerusalem in 1967. After being directly responsible for the expulsion of 800,000 Palestinians in 1948, many of which fled to those territories after having their homes and belongings destroyed during Plan Dalet. Since 1967, Israel has had control over Gaza as the Occupier, changing into a more brutal form of Occupation with the 2007 Blockade. Israel has been the one responsible for the de-development of Gaza. How can you possibly think Israel is 'supporting' Gaza?

That image is factual, especially when you consider the context of the wars Israel wages on Gaza.

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/b67a89fd-5dc3-45ec-80c7-66a243e6274d.png

theotherverion ,
@theotherverion@lemmynsfw.com avatar

You are posting images from aljazeera and calling them factual.
You also keep talking about Nakba (which I condemn) but fail to present that roughly 900k jews were forced out of Arab countries.

Your anti-Israel bias is truly unprecedented.

Keeponstalin ,

The first image wasn't from Al Jazeera, and both provide factual information. If you want to dispute a piece of information in the images, say what in particular and back it up.

The Jewish exodus from Muslim Countries was indeed terrible. However, using it to legitimatize the Nakba or Apartheid is also terrible. Many prominent Israeli Historians criticize the "Jewish Nakba" narrative, as it's called has been called, as being worse than the Nakba. There were certainly pogroms, property confiscation, and deportations against Jews in Islamic countries (considered push factors) which led to Jewish refugees to leave against their will. Notably in Iraq, Egypt, and Syria. However many decided to emigrate on their own accord, able to sell their property and move voluntarily. I'm also not aware of any Jewish refugees that are denied the right of return or citizenship.

Yeah, I'm biased against genocide and Apartheid States, you got me there.

theotherverion ,
@theotherverion@lemmynsfw.com avatar

So when it’s palestinians, they were forced out but when it’s jews, they left voluntarily and can freely return to Iran, Libya, Syria and totally won't be killed...

Keeponstalin ,

That's not what I said. I specifically said that there were certainly Jewish refugees; especially from Egypt, Iraq, and Syria. Besides Syria, yes as far as I can tell they can freely return. That doesn't mean they would want to or that they should. UNHCR allows for repatriation for refugees, however as far as I'm aware the vast majority of Jewish refugees chose to live elsewhere due to persecution.

However, saying all 850,000 Jewish people from the exodus were refugees is simply not true. Many voluntarily left due to pull factors such as the desire to fulfill Zionism or finding a better economic status and a secure home in either Israel, Europe, or the Americas. Many were able to sell their homes and move to where they wanted to.

Historian Tom Segev stated: "Deciding to emigrate to Israel was often a very personal decision. It was based on the particular circumstances of the individual's life. They were not all poor, or 'dwellers in dark caves and smoking pits'. Nor were they always subject to persecution, repression or discrimination in their native lands. They emigrated for a variety of reasons, depending on the country, the time, the community, and the person."

theotherverion ,
@theotherverion@lemmynsfw.com avatar

Some Palestinians also left because Muslim leaders said so whilst a lot of them were forced out. Same happened to Jews where in many muslim countries there are roughly zero jews out there.
Leaving because you face oppression is literally the same as being forced out.

But yes, when we are forcing out palestinians, it’s terrible but forcing out jews is completely fine...

To summarize, I condemn both actions but needless to say, arab countries have no right to criticize Israel because they have done literally the same thing.

NoLifeGaming ,

Unfortunately, in a recent poll 80% of israeli said that israel should take into consideration the suffering of civilians. Only less than 2% said they believed the IDF is using too much fire power. I think there is a deeper issue with people's sentiments.

Source

_sideffect ,

Lmao, fuck this guy. He doesn't give two fucks about Palestine or its people.

DdCno1 ,

The fact that a large number of people in the West are denying this and portraying Hamas as freedom fighters is very worrying.

Anyolduser ,

There's something in the world of intelligence called the "useful idiot". It's basically someone who drinks the Kool aid you're selling and unwittingly works for your agency/country/organization.

Don't overestimate the wisdom of the average Joe of the Western world.

Linkerbaan ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

The fact that a large number of people in the West are waking up from the Zionist propaganda is very worrying to you?

Blumpkinhead ,

Israel being evil doesn't make Hamas the good guys. If you butcher unarmed men, women, and children, then you're fucking evil. Fuck Isreal, and fuck Hamas.

Linkerbaan ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

"Hitler being evil doesn't make the Allies the good guys! They bombed Dresden and killed many German civilians!"

"Everyone who does a war crime is equally evil and if you aren't perfect when you fight back against being Genocided you are equally as evil as the party doing the Genocide!"

Is the PA going to stop israel doing Genocide? Were you doing it? Was America doing it?

Nobody was doing it. Nobody cared. So Hamas fought back. Nobody did anything when they peacefully protested in 2018. Don't complain now.

DdCno1 ,

At some point you might learn that simplistic, childish concepts of pure good and evil rarely apply in this world. Yes, the Allies were the good guys in WW2. Being the good guy doesn't mean you're perfect, because absolutely nothing is.

Linkerbaan ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

At some point you might learn that lesson yourself.

Go find out what the ANC did in South Africa to free themself from their colonizers. Go find out how the Haitans rebelled against their colonizers. Go learn how the American Natives fought back against their colonizers.

Hamas colonial resistance was probably one of the most targeted in all of history with a 33%+ soldier kill rate. But of course nothing is good enough for those that demand absolute perfection from angry people in a concentration camp.

DdCno1 ,

Like the other user said, the anti-apartheid movement in South Africa only became successful after it abandoned violent resistance - and citing Haiti as an aspirational example is downright hysterical.

There's also a massive difference between demanding outright perfection and not applauding people who behead Asian guest workers (who, as I'm sure you are aware, but equally willing to ignore, are not "evil Zionist colonizers") with a rusty gardening hoe while live-streaming the torture-murder on the Internet. Coincidentally, you seem to have no trouble with demanding outright perfection from the IDF, who, by the way, has a roughly similar soldier kill rate in this conflict according to most estimates - but I bet you are not willing to applaud them for that.

As for what Gaza actually was, here's what this supposed "concentration camp" looked like before the war:

https://youtu.be/W1r1z3x53ZU

footoro ,

Telling lies again? This sounds exactly like the Hamas beheads babies story. Israeli propaganda became so lazy.

Fuck Hamas and what they did, but compared to the genocidal Israelis they are saints and I’m tired of reading all these unproven horror stories of what Hamas allegedly did while Israel is literally using an AI to murder children.

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

Hamas colonial resistance was probably one of the most targeted in all of history with a 33%+ soldier kill rate. But of course nothing is good enough for those that demand absolute perfection from angry people in a concentration camp.

What the fuck

Blumpkinhead ,

Hamas "fought back" by breaking down the doors of Israeli homes and slaughtering the families cowering inside. Gunning down teenagers at a music festival and kidnapping the survivors. That wasn't strategy. That was fanatical hatred, cowardly, and evil.

Hamas are cowards, perfectly happy to sit back and watch innocent Palestinians be slaughtered in the aftermath.

AdrianTheFrog ,
@AdrianTheFrog@lemmy.world avatar

The IDF has killed 11 thousand men, 9 thousand women, and 14 thousand children, making 34 thousand total killed (an unknown number of which were civilians). Hamas has killed 0.6 thousand military personnel and 0.8 thousand civilians, making 1.4 thousand total killed (57% of which were civilians).

The number of children killed by Isreal (only children) is 17 times larger than the number of civilians killed by Hamas. Of course that doesn't make killing civilians OK, but I struggle to see an argument that Hamas is worse than the IDF. And if Hamas is the only method by which Palestine can defend itself, then there is a solid argument to be made for it being the lesser evil.

Blumpkinhead ,

Both groups are murderers. One is just better equipped for it. Hamas hasn't killed less civilians out of some kind of restraint or combat disipline, they just don't have the same capability as the IDF. Meanwhile, Israel is gleefully using all the free shit that it's allies are supplying it with to kill every man woman and child in sight. Fuck Hamas. Fuck Israel.

Eyck_of_denesle ,

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asymmetric_warfare

Blumpkinhead ,

If you ever find yourself on either side of asymmetric warfare, and you're killing kids...you're the bad guy.

Linkerbaan ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Good thing Hamas barely killed any kids. Less than 3% of the deaths.

Israel kills 40% children.

Wonder who the bad guy is.

Blumpkinhead ,

It's like I said, it's not one or the other. They are both the bad guys.

Linkerbaan ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Do you call Ukraine the bad guys too for defending themselves?

Every country has soldiers killing innocents.

Every country does war crimes.

Everyone is the bad guys.

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

Is the PA going to stop israel doing Genocide? Were you doing it? Was America doing it?

... is fucking Hamas doing it right now? Because from what I see, Israel is closer to completing their genocide than they have been in my lifetime. Sure as fuck doesn't look like they've STOPPED anything, but rather poured gasoline on the fire.

Linkerbaan ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Israel is further from completing their Genocide than they have ever been. They used to be able to just slowly take over land with full international support. Israel is now the pariah of the world and the Abraham accords are gone. Hamas has taken off the mask and shown israel as the Nazis they are.

but rather poured gasoline on the fire.

TIL fighting against the fire = pouring gasoline on it.

People keep claiming that what Hamas did will lead to nothing for the Palestinians. The only thing we can be certain of is that not fighting back will have ensured they burned to death slowly. We're currently seeing mass protests on college campuses, is that because people are really mad israel is doing a Genocide in the West Bank right now too?

PugJesus ,
@PugJesus@lemmy.world avatar

People keep claiming that what Hamas did will lead to nothing for the Palestinians. The only thing we can be certain of is that not fighting back will have ensured they burned to death slowly.

The only thing we can be certain of is that Hamas's attack has led to Israel genociding some 30,000 Palestinians. The fuck makes you think killing a bunch of civilians is in any way fighting for any cause other than extending the conflict? But neither Hamas nor you care about that; only drum-beating for Islamofascism using Palestinian independence as a shield for that shitfuckery. Fucking insane.

gimpchrist ,
@gimpchrist@lemmy.world avatar

Well then who is Israel attacking? If Hamas is in Qatar?

DdCno1 ,

You can't be seriously asking this in good faith.

Son_of_dad ,

The Hamas leadership are a bunch of wealthy old men who live abroad in comfort.

Rapidcreek ,

Two issues. The first is that they aren't going to get pre-1967 borders. The larger more important point though is that Hamas just admitted they aren't a legitimate government power and are actually terrorists instead. Own goal.

Count042 ,

Terrorism is a verb.

Terrorists are people that commit terrorism.

Official count is now 42,000 dead Palestinians, but that is because the ability to count the dead no longer exists. The number is probably closer to 100,000

Israeli doctors have come forward to detail how amputations are regular for Palestinian prisoners who have been zip tied for months now.

Any definition of terrorism that includes Hamas, also includes the Israeli government.

Edit: recognizing your username, now is when you'll call me antisemitic.

AmidFuror ,

You're at the very least anti-partsofspeech.

Kolrami ,

You just got downvoted for correctly realizing that terrorism is literally a noun. Strange times.

AmidFuror ,

My comment was terrorismed.

Count042 ,

I didn't downvote you, but I didn't understand your comment are all. But, I probably couldn't diagram a sentence anymore.

But, at the risk of being stupid here, wouldn't terrorist be the noun and terrorism the verb?

Terrorist is someone who uses violence against a civilian population to enact political change, and terrorism is the act of using violence against a civilian population to enact change?

AmidFuror ,

Thanks for asking. I respect that.

Terrorism is a noun. It is the use or act of political violence to create fear in a populace. It's a little tricky because those sound like doing something, which would be a verb. But we're describing the thing those people are doing.

Terrorists do acts of terrorism. People do things. What do they do? They terrorize. They terrorized. They will terrorize. She terrorizes. That's the verb.

Terroristic would be the adjective.

Count042 ,

Huh, okay, I think I see where you are coming from.

The only issue I have with trouble with understanding is that I don't think terrorism and terrorize can be considered the same word.

If I'm a terrorist, I do a terrorism, I don't terrorize.

Similarly, I terrorize my cats when the get poop on a paw with water, but I don't commit a terroristic act against them when I wash their feet

Of course, I think most of that comes from creaturely a poorly defined word with an amorphous meaning that is based off of, but isn't, a similar word.

Terror may be a root word for terrorism, but I fell like the definition has changed enough that the conjugation is different

I honestly don't understand how people who think this is easy can think math is hard.

Than you got your previous response, too. I did find out useful.

Edit: to be clear, I am fully aware I have no idea what I'm talking about here, language wise, so the above 'I think I can see where you were coming from' was meant more as a 'I think I understand'

AmidFuror ,

It's fair to say "terrorize" isn't a verb that fits well. But then we're left with "doing" being the verb in "doing terrorism." And "terrorism" in that context is a thing - a noun.

Most "isms" are nouns. Mormonism, romanticism, communism, terrorism. Romanticists romanticize and are different than romantics who romance. Communists don't really commune. There's really no Mormonizing.

Count042 ,

Thanks for that explanation!

DdCno1 ,

The number is probably closer to 100,000

Based on what exactly?

Count042 ,

Based on time under starvation conditions, the mass graves the IDF seems constitutionally incapable of not leaving behind, and counts of missing family members.

It is interesting that Lemmy is so small that I can recognize the usernames of genocide defenders so easily.

Tell me: is there any line crossed, any action taken by the IDF that you wouldn't automatically defend?

Do you think it is right that Palestinians prisoners should be zip tied long enough that their limbs die and need too be cut off?

DdCno1 ,

Based on time under starvation conditions, the mass graves the IDF seems constitutionally incapable of not leaving behind, and counts of missing family members.

Can you share your methodology of calculating this number? You are not basing this on anything but your gut-feeling. Given how most of your comments consist of blindly parroting propaganda instead of even trying to form any in-depth understanding of this topic, that's not surprising. Hell, you once attacked me for trying to bring nuance into this debate, at which point I was done with you for that day, because could there be anything more intellectually bankrupt?

is there any line crossed, any action taken by the IDF that you wouldn’t automatically defend?

Sure thing. If orders to deliberately exterminating Palestinians came to light, that would certainly be it. Those should exist if the goal of the IDF, as frequently claimed by people like you who make up fantasy numbers to then feel outraged about, was genocide. Of course, this clashes with various efforts of the same IDF to prevent Palestinian civilians from being harmed, which is kind of odd, don't you think?

So either they are using e.g. roof knocking and a whole range of other warning measures just for PR-purposes (even though it significantly hurts their military efforts and their PR - Hamas can escape and the moment any building is being roof-knocked, dozens of cameras are immediately on it in order to film it, with lots of people feeling perfectly safe, trusting that this building and only this building will be hit; strange that) or the truth isn't as simple as you are so desperately trying to make it be. You haven't exactly been writing particularly well thought out comments on this topic at any point. Not that this limits your enthusiasm for your self-righteous preaching. Dunning, meet Kruger.

Do you think it is right that Palestinians prisoners should be zip tied long enough that their limbs die and need too be cut off?

No, but good job trying distracting from your fantasy numbers. This might constitute criminal neglect. Those responsible should be punished and measures should be undertaken to prevent this from occurring. While internal review processes are far from perfect at the IDF, they do at least exist and are being applied. Two senior officers responsible for ordering the recent air strikes on aid workers were sacked, for example. The same could happen here as well.

NoIWontPickaName ,

I would like to bring this back around to said mass graves the IDF is denying:

That takes more than a couple of people

DdCno1 ,

Said mass graves that have been there for longer than the IDF? Of course they are denying them.

https://twitter.com/GeoConfirmed/status/1782360891624665180

Nitter link (might not always be working):

https://nitter.poast.org/GeoConfirmed/status/1782360892249612466#m

Keeponstalin ,

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/552c45d0-e2c0-4f86-bbc9-b2848f9d5d22.jpeg

GAZA STRIP: Famine is imminent as 1.1 million people, half of Gaza, experience catastrophic food insecurity - Integrated Food Security Phase Classification (IPC)

DdCno1 ,

Would you mind providing the source of this visualization so that I can read further into this? Thanks!

protist ,

What's the difference between terrorists and the resistance to an occupation?

DdCno1 ,

I suspect you are not asking in good faith, but I'm answering anyway: Methods and goals. Hamas methods are clear: Legitimate resistance doesn't deliberately and as a core policy murder, abduct and rape civilians. Hamas are no different from IS in this regard, which nobody calls resistance or freedom fighters.

Goals: Hamas actual and openly stated goal is the creation of a global Islamic caliphate and the murder and/or enslavement of all "nonbelievers", not the liberation of the Palestinian people.

nac82 ,

This seems to directly contradict the claims of the actual Hamas statements we are looking at right now.

Interesting that you can pick and choose which Hamas leader statements to believe in forming this narrative. Also, it is a little ironic that you claim others are engaging in bad faith while you manipulate which statements are valid from the same source.

Count042 ,

How many Palestinian prisoners do the IDF hold from the west bank?

How are they taken?

What level of evidence is required for them to be 'arrested'?

Do they face the same legal processes as the Israeli 'settlers' when arrested?

What is the difference between the words 'hostage' and 'prisoner' to you?

How many Palestinian prisoners, including children, are reported raped each year in prison?

chaogomu ,

I'm all for the establishment of a free Palestinian state, but Hamas has to go.

Preferably through police action rather than the genocide that is a military intervention by Israel.

Anyway, the Israeli government is in the wrong on all the counts you raised, but Hamas still needs to go. They've been fully co-opted by all sorts of outside groups, and their rule in Gaza before October 7th was one of fear and oppression. They are no one's saviors, they're just the meanest bastards in the prison, lashing out at the guards while abusing the other prisoners.

The actual path to peace is a multinational police and peacekeeping force to come in and take over from the IDF, keeping the IDF out of it completely, and then opening up Gaza and the West Bank to the rest of the world. Possibly even ejecting the settlers from the West Bank and giving the land back.

But a large part of this would be arresting Hamas leadership.

And don't think I'd let the IDF and Israeli government off scot-free for their part in all this. I'm sure there's plenty of room in the local prisons for all the bastards in this mess.

The end goal might be a single, secular state, where all people are guaranteed full rights and protections by the government.

NOT_RICK ,
@NOT_RICK@lemmy.world avatar

The distinction comes from the ends they seek and the means they go about achieving those ends.

Oh Allah, destroy the Jews and their supporters. Oh Allah, destroy the Americans and their supporters. Oh Allah, count them one by one, and kill them all, without leaving a single one.”

-prayer of Sheik Ahmad Bahr

I could easily get behind a platform that acknowledges that 7 million Jews now live in Israel and forcing them out (or even worse, killing them) would be a humanitarian catastrophe, but instead Hamas’ position is just as unyielding and genocidal as what Bibi’s admin has been waging upon the people of Gaza and the West Bank. They’re only now talking about laying down their arms because it benefits their attempts to paint themselves as the reasonable party in this conflict which I find to be a farce. More conflict and death benefits both Likud and Hamas.

Linkerbaan ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Are you going to spam the same quote from some dude that's already dead all over the thread? The fact you can't find anything more recent than is astounding. Let's do it the other way around:

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/d39c85c6-a7fc-45fa-b650-edb56017d5c4.jpeg

NOT_RICK ,
@NOT_RICK@lemmy.world avatar

I posted it twice, somehow that qualifies as spam, fucking lol. Fuck that lady and the other genocidal maniacs at the wheel in Israel.

”The cleansing of Palestine of the filth of the Jews, and their uprooting from it, Allah willing”

“the establishment of the Caliphate, after the nation has been healed of its cancer – the Jews – Allah willing.”

-Fathi Hamad, 2018

That recent enough for you? Fathi is still kicking as well. It’s quite easy to find more.

Linkerbaan ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Yeah thats indeed a bad statement. Looks like Hamas made him walk it back and he apologized.

Hamas official walks back call to Palestinian Diaspora to kill ‘Jews everywhere’

A senior Hamas official on Monday attempted to walk back his call for members of the Palestinian diaspora to kill Jews around the world, as the terrorist group distanced itself from his remarks.

He added: “Our resistance to this usurping entity will continue in all of its forms whether that is armed or popular peaceful struggle.”

nonailsleft ,

"Whoopsie! So sorry I called for a global genocide there. Never meant a word of it"

Linkerbaan ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Oppressed people tend to conflate the attributes of their oppressors and generalize everyone with those attributes.

Slaves often started to hate every white person instead of just slave owners.

As israel constantly screams they represent all Jews, and commit all their crimes in the name of Judaism, some Palestinians (mistakenly) conflate the two.

Luckily Hamas as an organization does not and clearly separates the two. Hamas has also never murdered a Jew outside of israel. Because they do not target Jews. They target the people that colonize their land.

Unlike israel where half the cabinet screams they want to murder every Arab and Ethnically Cleanse their land.

Son_of_dad ,

Certainly not the views of some western kid who only cares after 7 decades because the internet told him to be outraged

DdCno1 ,

Here's a fun game: Ask people who shout "From the river to the sea" which river and which see are meant and what this statement implies. The results are unsurprising.

Son_of_dad ,

I married a Jewish woman who told me she doesn't know what that means. Cause she's Canadian and has no interest in the politics of a country across the planet. So why people like you take it out on her, simply because of her heritage, I have no idea... Oh no wait I do, as a native I am well aware of your tactics.

That quote reminds me of another one I heard "from sea to shining sea" where you guys colonized, raped and killed us and took all our land from sea to shining sea

DdCno1 ,

I'm not American. You criticized me for making an assumption about people by making an assumption about me.

Also, is it really that unreasonable to ask of people to look up what they are shouting? To have even a passing knowledge of what they decided to protest for or against?

Keeponstalin ,

The slogan From the River to the Sea is about Palestinian liberation that started in the 60s by the PLO for a democratic secular state, not Genocide. The Syrian leader Hafez al-Assad in 1966 maybe, but he's not Palestinian.

Altofaltception ,

If you consider that Hamas only exists to fight against Israeli oppression over an ineffective PA, it makes sense that if the oppression ends, Hamas becomes irrelevant.

IrateAnteater ,

It's important to note that for most of its existence, "fighting against Israeli oppression" explicitly meant Israel no longer existing. This is the first time I can remember them even implying that they would accept a two state solution.

jpreston2005 ,

they accepted a two-state solution previously, the isreali PM that was negotiating with them at the time was assassinated.

gimpchrist ,
@gimpchrist@lemmy.world avatar

Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated by an Israeli law student who didn't believe in the peace talks. Hamas didn't even kill him, Israel did it. No fucking surprise there.

DdCno1 ,

Hamas was also not in power back then, in no position to accept or reject any solution.

thatirishguyyy ,
@thatirishguyyy@lemmy.today avatar

That was in the 70's, he was killed by a student, not the government.

And the PA, including Yasser Arafat, have turned it down 4 or 5 times. Yasser Arafat turned it down last time in 2002/2004(?). They have never taken it seriously.

Milk_Sheikh ,

If Arafat wasn’t serious about negotiations, why sit down at all and risk his position in the PLO? For decades the ‘Three Nos’ stunted any Arab-Israeli diplomacy, and the maximalists still hold sway today as they did then

Israel refused the right of return for Palestinians as a whole, while for decades doing all within their power to boost Jewish immigration, bankroll Aliyah flights, rubber stamp naturalization, and regular ‘missionary’ trips to visit US and European nations - all only for ethnic Jews, and their spouses.

A two-tiered system based on race is hardly a fair deal, especially in a democratic system where your people are denied fair representation whilst Jew from the world over are invited to jump on a plane and become a full citizen after three months

Keeponstalin ,

Before 1948, Palestinian Leadership repeatedly advocated for a Unitary Binational State for decades: Palestinian Arab Congress advocating for Unified State 1928, Arab Higher Committee advocating for Unified State 1937, Arab League advocating for Unified State 1948

After the founding of Israel, the Two-State Solutions were utilized to further annex the Palestinian Occupied Territories and enact military control over Palestinians while denying them human and civil rights. This is apartheid. Despite this, both Fatah and Hamas have accepted a Two-State Solution on the 1967 borders, with the two most important factors being the Right of Return of Palestinian refugees and an end to the permanent occupation.

Oslo Accord Sources: MEE, NYT, Haaretz, AJ

History of peace process - The Intercept

The settlements represent land-grabbing, and land-grabbing and peace-making don’t go together, it is one or the other. By its actions, if not always in its rhetoric, Israel has opted for land-grabbing and as we speak Israel is expanding settlements. So, Israel has been systematically destroying the basis for a viable Palestinian state and this is the declared objective of the Likud and Netanyahu who used to pretend to accept a two-state solution. In the lead up to the last election, he said there will be no Palestinian state on his watch. The expansion of settlements and the wall mean that there cannot be a viable Palestinian state with territorial contiguity. The most that the Palestinians can hope for is Bantustans, a series of enclaves surrounded by Israeli settlements and Israeli military bases.

  • Avi Shlaim

How Avi Shlaim moved from two-state solution to one-state solution

‘One state is a game changer’: A conversation with Ilan Pappe

One State Solution, Foreign Affairs

nonailsleft ,

They wanted a unified Arab state, and they wanted the non-Arab immigrants out

And failing that, they tried to put a genocide on them

Small details, I know

Keeponstalin ,

They wanted a unified Arab state, and they wanted the non-Arab immigrants out

It's true they wanted it to be an Arab state, since the vast majority were Arab. It's not that they wanted 'non-arab immigrants' out, it's that Zionist Settler Colonialism was quite different from normal immigration. Instead of integration, the early land purchases led to the expulsion of tens of thousands of Palestinians in the early 1900's. Many Palestinians opposed the Zionist Land Purchases and Immigration because of fears they would be forced out of their homes and communities, not because they were Jewish.

The Concept of Transfer 1882-1948

Transfer Committee and the JNF led to Forced Displacement of 100,000 Palestinians throughout the mandate.

And failing that, they tried to put a genocide on them

Are you talking about the Ethnic Cleansing of Palestinians? Because that was planned and carried out. There was nothing remotely equivalent from Palestinians or the Arab Liberation Army.

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/b9ea4bd7-24c3-4a37-84be-2aee954614bd.jpeg

nonailsleft ,

It’s true they wanted it to be an Arab state, since the vast majority were Arab

If you have sympathy for that argument, what's the difference with jewish people who want the same? Both wanted to be the first class citizens in their country.

the early land purchases led to the expulsion of tens of thousands of Palestinians in the early 1900’s

That's true, but it's not different from renters who are forced out after their landlord sells the property. It's not a 'nice' part of humanity, but it's generally accepted as 'fair'. Of course it's true that most zionist immigrants had no plans to integrate with non-jews. Partly because of their own religious backwardness, partly because they moved there specifically to escape religious oppression.

There was nothing remotely equivalent from Palestinians or the Arab Liberation Army

There certainly was: Nebi Musa riots; 1929 Palestine Riots; etc. certainly showed the intent of many Palestinian Arabs to put an ethnic cleansing on the jews.

You're quite wrong if you don't think the ALA or others didn't go in with the same intent. You should look up their logo or statements from their organizers prior to their attack. The only reason one side won is because the other side lost

NOT_RICK ,
@NOT_RICK@lemmy.world avatar

The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said: ‘The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.’

-Article 7 of Hamas’ founding charter

They were founded to kill Jews and push them out of Palestine. They’re not righteous freedom fighters.

“Oh Allah, destroy the Jews and their supporters. Oh Allah, destroy the Americans and their supporters. Oh Allah, count them one by one, and kill them all, without leaving a single one.”

-prayer of Sheik Ahmad Bahr

They’re just as genocidal as Israel has been as of late, they just lack the same capability Israel does.

Keeponstalin ,

Hamas began twenty years into the occupation during the first Intifada, with the goal of ending the occupation. Collective punishment has been a deliberate Israeli tactic for decades with the Dahiya doctrine. Violence such as suicide bombings and rockets escalated in response to Israeli enforcement of the occupation and apartheid.

Hamas 1988 Charter and Revised 2017 Charter

The 1988 Charter, which is certainly unreasonable in its fundamentalism with Sharia Law and is antisemitic, does not call for the extermination of all Jewish People. Hamas wants an end to Israel as an Apartheid State, not an extermination of all Israelis. Under Ahmed Yassin in the 1990's, truces were offered in exchange for Israeli to withdrawal from Gaza and the West Bank to the 1967 borders. The 2017 Revised charter explicitly accepts a Two-State Solution of the 1967 Borders. Check Article 7 and 13 of the 1988 Charter to see yourself, compare it to Article 20 and 24-26 in the revised charter.

The slogan From the River to the Sea is about Palestinian liberation that started in the 60s by the PLO for a democratic secular state, not Genocide. The Syrian leader Hafez al-Assad in 1966 maybe, but he's not Palestinian.

History of Hamas supported by Netanyahu since 2012

No I don't support Hamas as a ruling party, I want Palestinians to be able to have free fair elections.

NOT_RICK ,
@NOT_RICK@lemmy.world avatar

Thanks for the links, I’ll give this a read later today.

chiliedogg ,

Hamas has lied about peace and democracy in the past. They became the state of Palestine by winning an election in which they promised to stop attacks on civilians and be democratic, then refusing to hold an election for 2 decades.

Israel is a genocidal regime and needs to be stopped. But that doesn't make Hamas the good guys. A long-term solution can't include the current governments of either Israel or Palestine.

Altofaltception ,

Hamas won an election in 2007, which no other country accepted the results of. Israel responded with a blockade. Not saying they're the good guys but it's not like it's a level playing field.

Godric ,

What! They "won" an election that nobody outside HAMAS found legitimate??? And then the country they promise to exterminate reacted? No way!?!?!?!?

Altofaltception ,

Don't let facts get in your way:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_election

International observers noted that the elections, for the most part, were conducted fairly and in accordance with international standards.

There were some reports of voter obstruction - caused by Israel.

Godric ,

HAMAS exists to exterminate Isreal and its inhabitants. Their offer is 'free Palestine, let us be the dominant political party, and let us form and official national army, then we chill for 5 years! Don't worry what we might do after that!'

Hamas isn't going to just die out if they win. Isreal would be suicidal if they agreed to the 'deal'.

Altofaltception ,

Hamas ran in the 2006 election under a completely different name, in an effort to demonstrate that they can in fact separate themselves from their militant faction.

Remember, Israel also had its origins in armed struggle (against the British).

Edit: although this is probably Israeli projection, given that the armed factions did become the Israeli military. And we all know what they're up to.

Arcity ,
@Arcity@feddit.nl avatar

Oke, and Israel exists to exterminate Palestinians and other arabs in their holy quest for greater Israel. Why is Israel continuing to settle the West Bank if Hamas is the big bad?

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