Israel ready for ‘all-out war’ in Lebanon ( www.aljazeera.com )

The Israeli military says its Northern Command has approved operational plans for war with Lebanon.

Israel is ready for an “all-out war” in Lebanon and has plans approved for an offensive targeting Hezbollah, officials have said.

Israel and Hezbollah have been engaged in border fighting since shortly after the start of the war on Gaza, following the October 7 attacks on Israel. The confrontation is increasingly expanding, with both sides saying they are ready to go to war.

More than 400 people have been killed in Lebanon, including journalists and paramedics, over the past eight months, with 25 deaths in Israel. At least 90,000 people have been displaced in Lebanon, and more than 60,000 have been forced from their homes in northern Israel.

FluminaInMaria ,

https://youtu.be/Q1Iw2fm58FY?si=ULyzTxsByUWbv-cU

https://youtu.be/a4t_4S1h4Zg?si=0rgDPudXeeImNL18

https://youtu.be/kAfIYtpcBxo?si=vL_EVezwQpyrnHP3

https://youtu.be/ymCaO45Zxo0?si=Kg_4CtSwiQfHHu16

istanbullu ,

Israel will no stop untill every non-Jew is dead.

Beaver ,
@Beaver@lemmy.ca avatar

Israel isn't going to stop are they?

Burn_The_Right ,

Why should they stop? They have the full U.S. M.I.C. to back them in whatever bullshit they want to do. If they can commit genocide with U.S. backing, then of course they can start wars with neighbors too.

We need to end our bizarre, expensive one-sided relationship with Israel. We get absolutely nothing out of it except headaches.

FarFarAway ,

Seriously, what tf are they thinking?

Burn_The_Right ,

Israel is thinking they can start any war they want because the U.S. will make sure they win. Netanyahu has repeatedly shown that the U.S. will do whatever he demands.

SpaceCowboy ,
@SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca avatar

Right now it's just some tough talk from both sides. It's possible for this to amount to something more than the normal levels of exchanging fire that's been going on since October 7, but it's doubtful.

Seems more likely Nasrallah just has to make some token effort to support Hamas to appease the rank and file. So he threatened Israel three days ago. Israel makes threats back now. Just another day in the Middle East.

solo OP ,

Right now it’s just some tough talk from both sides

How do you know that? The Zionist settler colonialist side has been doing Genocide for the past 8-9 months, this is not as you say

Just another day in the Middle East.

And like Hitler, Netanyahu is unable to stop. And unlike Hitler he is not fighting and loosing battles. When Hitler started loosing in the front, part of his entourage tried to talk him out of it, without success. This is why, there was even an attempt to kill him from inside the Nazi party.

Netanyahu on the other hand, is not loosing battles since he is just bombing and starving people, while being supported in all possible ways by the US and most of the west. Why should he stop now? The Zionist plan of eliminating or displacing all Palestinians is working fine so far.

Netanyahu is so pumped up he could easily invade Lebanon. Also Israel has attacked Lebanon twice and got defeated twice in a humiliating way. Last time was in 2006, meaning not that long ago. This is why Netanyahu has such a beef with Hezbollah. I'm afraid that Netanyahu has been given so much support and leverage from the West, he's about to start an actual war with Lebanon.

SpaceCowboy ,
@SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca avatar

Another day, another thing for you to rage over, right? Gotta maintain that outrage or you might think about how horrible Hamas is.

istanbullu ,

Israel has never stopped killing people in Lebanon.

Linkerbaan ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Actual headline: America is ready for an all out war with Lebanon

SpaceCowboy ,
@SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca avatar

US has been trying to prevent an Israeli-Hezbollah war. Even al Jazeera says this in the third sentence in the linked article.

Donkter ,

I'm sure al Jazeera would have said the US has been trying to prevent an Israeli-Palestine war before the conflict happened. We can see what happened with that.

SpaceCowboy ,
@SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca avatar

That would imply that al Jazeera knew October 7 was going to happen in advance. Is that what you're saying? Or is October 7 such an inconvenience to the narrative you want to believe you've got a complete mental block on it?

Donkter ,

How on earth would what I said imply that Al Jazeera knew that October 7th was going to happen lol. There's been threats of war between the two for decades.

SpaceCowboy ,
@SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca avatar

Ah, so you've got a mental block about October 7. Got it.

Donkter ,

You didn't answer the question.

istanbullu ,

nonsense. Israel does everything with American weapons. US wants more war, otherwise they would not be giving Israel so many weapons.

SpaceCowboy ,
@SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca avatar

The US wants stability in the Middle East to keep the oil flowing.

istanbullu ,

Nonsense. If this was true, Israel would not be getting genocide support from thr US.

SpaceCowboy ,
@SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca avatar

Gonna keep on disregarding any fact or logic that conflicts with the narrative, huh?

istanbullu ,

you are the one ignoring facts and believing in a fanstasy

Sam_Bass ,

Getting the bighead from all the big US funds they have to play with

WanderingVentra ,

Totally worth not having health care so we can support Israel starting wars around the Middle East.
-_-

reddit_sux ,

Israel: History repeats itself, it has been a quite 100 years, time for another of those great wars, World War, I think ot was called.

Lhianna ,

The war to end all wars, they called it

pyre ,

next up, invade random countries... don't mind me I'm just going through Hitler's to-do list.

slurpinderpin ,

Doesn’t Lebanon shoot rockets at Israel? Like pretty frequently?

febra ,

Yeah, while Israel has been invading and violating Lebanon's airspace for much longer than they've been shooting rockets.

slurpinderpin ,

So not really “invading random countries” like the person I responded to said, right? They’ve been fighting

febra ,

Yeah Israel should have been sanctioned a long time ago for their airspace invasions. If they proceed with a land invasion, they should be embargoed by the world.

slurpinderpin ,

By your logic though, Taiwan should be launching rockets into China because China regularly violates their airspace. It’s just not how normal countries interact with each other man, these people are psychos. Both sides

febra ,

I just said Israel should be sanctioned. I haven't made one comment on whether the rockets were good or bad.

slurpinderpin ,

I asked hasn’t Lebanon been firing rockets at Israel for a while - you said Israel invades their airspace (implying that firing rockets into Israel was justified)

febra ,

Yeah, by your own logic you can go one reply further and you'll realize that you were trying to justify a land invasion of Lebanon.

slurpinderpin ,

I was trying to point out that it wouldn’t be “invading random countries”. They’ve been fighting

librejoe ,

Are people actually making excuses for Hezbollah?

hark ,
@hark@lemmy.world avatar

Are people actually making excuses for Israel?

librejoe ,

Are you serious? Hezbollah went in and gutted Lebanon of anything not of their version of "islamic" and think they are going to get sympathy. Why do you think so many people left Lebanon during the civil war (if you can even call it that)?

hark ,
@hark@lemmy.world avatar

and Israel did even worse. Your point?

istanbullu ,

Israel is worse. Israel is the Jewish Isis.

librejoe ,

Yikes.

istanbullu ,

Are people actually making excuses for Israel?

gedaliyah ,
@gedaliyah@lemmy.world avatar

Yes.

AnUnusualRelic ,
@AnUnusualRelic@lemmy.world avatar

You can't really think of Lebanon as a country at this time. It's a territory where several groups hold various amounts of power. Hzbollah is one of those groups. The "government", or what passes for it is another.

UnderpantsWeevil ,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

Palestine isn't a country. Lebanon isn't a country. Excited to see Syria, Egypt, and Jordan suffer the same fate.

librejoe ,

Palestine isn't a country. It was offered statehood and turned it down. Lebanon is very much a country.

UnderpantsWeevil ,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

Palestine isn’t a country.

More countries recognize Palestine as an independent state than Taiwan.

It was offered statehood and turned it down.

It wasn't offered statehood. It was offered a shell of bureaucracy under the boot of an occupying Israeli military.

librejoe ,

Under the boot of an occupying Israeli military. You mean the one who had to build the iron dome becusse Arab states want/wanted to bomb it back to the stoneage?

Good for these countries recognizing it's statehood, doesn't make it true.

SuddenDownpour ,

This is what colonial rhetoric in the 21st century looks like.

UnderpantsWeevil ,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/80b26dab-023f-47c8-ac8f-5a756b169146.jpeg

Doing a Blitzkreg to win some Lebensraum and no I don't understand why this would be problematic.

postmateDumbass ,

The Südetenland is already waiting to be liberated and fulfill their genetic destiny!

SpaceCowboy ,
@SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca avatar

These propaganda memes are getting more and more bizarre. This is the "Promised Land" meme that from I can tell originated from a faked photo of a patch on an Israeli soldier a few weeks ago.

Israel simply doesn't have the capability to take that amount of territory, much less hold it. And see that blue on the Sinai peninsula? Israel actually controlled that in the past. They returned it to Egypt when they made peace in the 70s.

This is the silliest anti-Israel meme yet. Try harder next time.

RealJoL ,

While this meme/picture is definitely exaggerated, the expansion of Israel far beyond its current borders is a political position held by members of the current government. It originates from early Zionist militias that aspired to capture these widespread borders.

It even caused an international incident some time ago.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-seeks-to-calm-waters-with-jordan-after-racist-extremist-speech-by-smotrich/

istanbullu ,

The Nazi ideology is alive and rules in Tel Aviv. They just changed who the supreme race is.

xc2215x ,

Israel continues to get worse and worse.

UnderpantsWeevil ,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

If someone could just figure out a way to point them at Russia, rather than picking fights with everyone else.

el_bhm ,

Well, russia be shipping muslims to Belarus like there is no tomorrow. Maybe tell Benny there is a lot of muslims in Belarus and they are coming from russia?

UnderpantsWeevil ,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

My thought was not "Get Israel to bomb all the people Russia is racist against".

yildolw ,

That's literally Russia's military strategy: conscript minorities and throw them as human waves into the meatgrinder in order to ethnically cleanse Russia while genociding Ukraine

el_bhm ,

I meant like russia is Gaza 2.0 and Kadyrov is literally Hamas. Maybe they will fuck off from Palestine.

UnderpantsWeevil ,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

Kadyrov is literally Hamas

Because he's Chechyan presiding over a Chechnyan government? I'd think he was more comparable to MBS or Abdullah II, whom Israelis are openly courting.

librejoe ,

Israel gets worse and worse....defending themselves.

redvolt ,

The down votes are from the Jews who get offended easily and are first to say you are antisemitic. Sometimes a "/s" is not enough.

WanderingVentra ,

From the people they're colonizing. That doesn't count as defending themselves. I can't say self-defense when I kill you after you try to punch me because I shot you multiple times.

JustZ ,
@JustZ@lemmy.world avatar

Unreal level of pandering rage bait.

No shit they have plans for all out war with Lebanon. America has plans for all our war with Canada.

demonsword ,
@demonsword@lemmy.world avatar

America has plans for all our war with Canada.

maybe the White House burning down again would be a little humbling, who knows

eestileib ,

Can we please stop giving this insane bloodthirsty man and his sidekicks weapons and intelligence support?

Naich ,
@Naich@lemmings.world avatar

Oh great. That will help with everything.

givesomefucks ,

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia%E2%80%93Syria%E2%80%93Iran%E2%80%93Iraq_coalition

If the US joins Israel, that pulls in Russia, Iran, Syria, Iraq, and since Russia and NK just did their deal. Likely NK as well.

AIPAC has bought off enough of both sides of the aisle, that our politicians will say we join.

This ain't the same WW3 shit we've been hearing about since the 50s. This shit can pop off at any moment.

Israel isn't acting rationally and Biden has repeatedly said he will support them under any possible circumstances. So what the fuck is going to happen?

FlyingSquid Mod ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

That's because Netanyahu needs a forever war to keep his dictatorship. That's always what this has been about.

solo OP ,

That’s always what this has been about.

I would add Zionist settler colonialism in the mix

Count042 ,

Forever wars only work against enemies that can't really do anything back.

Israel is about to enter the 'find out' stage.

snooggums ,
@snooggums@midwest.social avatar

They will end up finding out that the US will absolutely have their back despite the genocide of Palestinians so that the US can keep their middle east ally. You know, like that one asshole who always starts fights because their big friends help out when they start getting their ass kicked.

Count042 ,

If they do, that will very likely pull in Iran, Russia, and now with the recent agreement, possibly North Korea.

The US is not as big as they were in the late nineties and early aughts.

Zron ,

The US navy has almost as many aircraft as all of Russia.

The US Army has more aircraft than all of Russia.

The US Airforce has more aircraft than the US navy and army.

That’s just planes and helicopters.

If you think any of the countries you talked about are a serious threat to the US outside of nuclear war, then you’re sorely mistaken about how truly insane US defense spending is.

NevermindNoMind ,

That's true, but I think what recent conflicts have demonstrated is that total firepower isn't everything. Ukraine was significantly outmatched by Russia and hung on, even before western weapons shipments. Hamas, estimated at something like 30k fighters strong and armed with small arms and light rockets/artillery, continues to fight effectively against the US armed IDF. Then we have historical examples like the US war in Vietnam, or the US failures to fight insurgents in Iraq (with the tide only changing after deliberate hearts and minds political/social strategy).

The whole "we have a lot of planes" thing is just defense contractor marketing. How that translates on the battlefield, especially when the civilian population despises you, is not great.

A war like that would devestate Isreal and drag the US into a true quagmire. It would sap a tremendous amount of resources and leave the US more vulnerable to the china's and Russias of the world.

Not to mention our good old buddy international terrorism, which Bidens unwavering support of Bibi is already making us a prime target for. Shit would be fucked.

Count042 ,

The scenario I described is World War 3.

That what Bibi, and Biden with his unwavering support, are playing with.

then you’re sorely mistaken about how truly insane US defense spending is.

NevermindNoMind already made this point to you but it bears repeating, Money spent doesn't translate into combat effectiveness. In fact, it tends to actually go against it. EDIT: Or, more specifically, money spent on individual weapon systems. The best weapon is the cheap one that can be mass produced, even if there are better weapon systems.

Ansarallah has been clear that part of their missile strategy is to eat into our budgets. They've been winning by that strategy. The total cost of their drones/missiles used against the US was in the several hundred thousand range, and the estimate for the missile defense ammo the US has used is around a billion dollars, and that was several months ago. Even the US can't compete with that cost disparity.

Secondly, it doesn't matter how many ships you have if you can't resupply them with ammo. America outsourced its production capabilities. It didn't outsource its weapon production facilities, but we can't convert the facilities we don't have any more to support increased ammo production, and we don't have enough weapons factories to supply the requisite ammo for continued operations in a modern war.

Third, your usage of "just planes and helicopters" is stupid beyond description. I am not willing to agree with you that the US will have air superiority in all theaters, which sadly is what its military doctrine both requires and assumes. (Which, by the by, is why the NATO trained Ukrainians did so poorly with their spring offensive. It's not their fault they couldn't use tactics that assume air superiority that they didn't have, but jesus the NATO people switched to racism right quick to explain the failure.) However, other countries doctrine assumes that air superiority won't be theirs.

Iran, for example, assumes they won't have air superiority from the start and so they spent most of their engineering time on missile technology. The Russians have tried to compete with their aircraft, but focused mainly on their G2A anti-air defenses. Now, even with Syria and Ukraine, there still isn't a lot of info on the effectiveness of the S400 in against the American Airforce.

It also doesn't account for the huge disparity in drone deployment capability which is frankly the future of the next war. And the US fails at this completely. The two main US drones cost 30 and 40 million a piece when the name of the game here is CHEAP. Frankly, Iran and now Russia beat our pants off on this topic. Even Hezbollah and Ansarallah have confirmed US drone kills. This is the scariest part. Culturally in the American military right now, being involved with drones was not seen as a career advancer, and definitely not something you'd want to put money into serious research.

This is more than I meant to write in response to a comment that basically amounts to a middle-schooler pounding their chest while screaming "My daddy can beat up your daddy" so I'm going to end it here.

If you think money translates to military readiness and sound doctrine, then you're not thinking about this very hard at all.

harrys_balzac ,

But the war in Ukraine has demonstrated that US stockpiles of ammunition are woefully low. Doesn't matter how many planes you have or that your soldiers have the best weapons if they run out of missiles and bullets.

Aoife ,

I mean this is purely conjecture but I would be very surprised if the US military did not in fact have huge stockpiles of ammunition that they are simply not willing to give to ukraine explicitly so they can be ready for an actual US deployment

piecat ,

Right that's just the stock of old/obsolete/close-to-expiring munitions and equipment we're willing to spare.

Veneroso , (edited )

Exactly. The US doctrine is and has been to counter two foes/theatres at once. That's the baseline that still includes the civil defense.

There's a reason why the US has the largest, second largest, and fourth largest air forces in the world.

We're experts at logistics and palletization.
We bring the war to you!

Relevant Beau of the Fifth Column:

https://youtu.be/9G39T4z0eiI?si=ffd2dmZUGIJDdB6f

hark ,
@hark@lemmy.world avatar

Half-assed support from the US isn't because of ammunition shortfalls, it's because the US will only give just enough to drag out the war and drain Russia as much as possible.

maynarkh ,

Ammunition for artillery that they don't use by doctrine.

They have a ton of eg. plane ammo, but they don't give planes to Ukraine.

Veneroso ,

https://youtu.be/9G39T4z0eiI?si=ffd2dmZUGIJDdB6f

AmidFuror ,

I'm curious what you mean. Hasn't Hezbollah been targeting Israel for decades? There's already been the South Lebanon Conflict and the 2008 Lebanon War.

What will they find out that they didn't already know?

corsicanguppy ,

Hasn’t Hezbollah been targeting Israel for decades?

It's just cute how much you left out, there, as if that's the only thing that's been going on.

"You see they hit us then we hit them. Then we hit them and they hit us, man. It's like a war, ya know what I'm sayin'" -- Ice-T

AmidFuror ,

The discussion was specifically about what Hezbollah would do to Israel in a new war and not how fault should be parcelled out for their long-running conflict.

johker216 ,

You need to understand that most people's understanding of the conflicts in the Middle East started on October 7, 2023.

Atin ,

Many users here start their understanding from about a week after October 7.

ShittyBeatlesFCPres ,

I think if they do a full-blown invasion, they’ll find out that Hezbollah (and quite possibly the regular Lebanese military) is a much bigger, experienced, and sophisticated enemy than Hamas. Also, an invasion of Lebanon could easily attract third parties (like Syria-based militias or even other countries).

If it’s a limited, restrained operation to create a buffer zone, it might not lead to escalation. There’s apparently a peace deal on the table that would accomplish just that but Hezbollah wants Israel to agree to the “ceasefire for hostages” deal in Gaza first.

But let’s not forget that Netanyahu is going to jail on corruption charges as soon as he isn’t prime minister. He’s alienated everyone except the extremist parties on the right so, ultimately, they’ll be able to control policy just by threatening to leave the fragile coalition government. So, I don’t know if I’d bet on a limited, restrained operation.

solo OP ,

I think if they do a full-blown invasion, they’ll find out that Hezbollah (and quite possibly the regular Lebanese military) is a much bigger, experienced, and sophisticated (...)

Oh they know well. Israel has invaded Lebanon twice (at least?) and both times they failed in a humiliating way.

Count042 , (edited )

The situation is not static at all.

Hezbollah has significantly improved upon their capabilities during that time period. Also, as a corollary to this, weapons technology in general has significantly advanced in a form that brings various capabilities to state actors that didn't use to have the tech or financial base to support them.

Guidance systems, avionics, electronics, and drones are changing the face of warfare in a way that removes a lot of the tech advantages rich nations had over poorer nations. But, the richer nations (And this isn't just about Israel, but most of the western states) are sticking their heads in their sand because their weapons manufactures are used to being used more for laundering tax payer money to the right people then for making great weapons. The main drones for the US cost between 30-40 million EACH!

Furthermore, Israel is going through all of the copium that settler colonialist societies go through when their martial superiority is starting to come into question. They clutch harder to their beliefs that make them feel secure. Israel withdrew in 2006 and declared themselves victors when it was obvious that they were not victors at all. Now, that is all that Israel remembers about 2006. That they won. That is what they truly believe.

There are a lot of delusions that are about to break here. That is why I say that if they try with Hezbollah, that it will be a 'Find Out' stage.

EDIT: Also, people tend to use the wrong measurement for what they consider to make an army strong. One of the most important factors is a willingness for a military to take causalities. There are very few armies stronger than Hezbollah by this measurement, whereas Israel has been very weak on this front since the early 2000's. Having a conscript army will do that.

JustZ ,
@JustZ@lemmy.world avatar

What are you going on about? Do you actually believe this stuff you're pulling out of thin air?

Lebanon has like nine fighting aircraft and that may be an over estimate. Hezzbollah has zero.

Israel has hundreds of fighters jets and bombers each, with thousands of drones ready to fly.

Lol?

njm1314 ,

Who exactly are they going to fight that's going to make them find out? The only powers in the region that are threat to them are Turkey, Egypt, and Saudi Arabia. None of which they're going to fight.

Count042 , (edited )

LOL.

Yeah, that's why the north is evacuated and Hezbollah is striking the north of Israel with impunity. How's that Iron Dome working in the North?

Secondly, Hezbollah is probably, pound for pound, the most competent military force in the region right now. You want to discount that to feel safe, well, that's part of the fuck around and find out. Thirdly, Iran will have this as an Casus Belli to enter the conflict, and the PMU's in Iraq have already stated they will invade in the event of an invasion of Lebanon.

The only powers in the region that are threat to them are Turkey, Egypt, and Saudi Arabia.

This is what makes it clear that you are not a serious person in the area. Saudi Arabia couldn't beat the poorest nation in the world with American planes, Columbian mercenaries, American refueling, and American intelligence all while starving the nation in an attempted genocide.

Saudia Arabia as a regional military power? That's a bad joke. I can't believe you wrote that with a straight face. They were literally beat by teenagers in flip flops.

ThirdWorldOrder ,
@ThirdWorldOrder@lemm.ee avatar

You are definitely correct. I don’t understand why these border countries and messing with a clearly deranged man. He’s just looking for an excuse.

hedek36960 ,

Definitely nothing about the united states or murica

FlyingSquid Mod ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Yes? And?

hedek36960 ,

Isn't it .. very obvious?

FlyingSquid Mod ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

No, it is not obvious to me what America has to do with Netanyahu's forever war plan to shore up his dictatorial powers aside from America's military aid.

Maybe rather than playing coy, you could explain yourself.

rdri ,

This seems inconsistent with previous overwhelming thought that Israel wants to kill Palestine completely. Killing that many people that fast (in a course of just a few months) would not let it last for too long in the end.

Also, is there evidence of Israel being a dictatorship? Is there an opposition that is being threatened or killed or something?

FlyingSquid Mod ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Sure, just ask Netanyahu's former best friend:

https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-798324

rdri ,

One person? That's not an opposition. Where is the opposition movement? Where are oppressed citizens?

FlyingSquid Mod ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

What are you talking about? You asked for evidence of Netanyahu shoring up a dictatorship and I gave it to you. Someone who knows him very well is saying that's what he's doing. I'm not sure why you think that isn't enough.

rdri ,

I don't think we have the same understanding of dictatorship. Dictatorship can't be hidden to the point of being only apparent to special people. It should be obvious to everyone and especially citizens affected (oppressed) by it. So far I'm not seeing any evidence of that.

FlyingSquid Mod ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Again, you asked for evidence and I gave it to you. Did you even read the article? From his best friend? Who talks about exactly how he's creating a dictatorship? Do you think there wouldn't be thousands of Israelis at protest rallies demanding an election if they were having elections like normal?

rdri ,

I hear Putin is a dictator and there are tons of evidence. I hear Xi is a dictator and there are tons of evidence. The evidence you gave (an article with words from one person) is laughable at best, sorry. Israeli people seem to live just fine under Netanyahu. Also it doesn't seem probable that he would attack Gaza if the October 7 attack didn't happen (and people are having a hard time trying to prove that he somehow made it possible). Same with Lebanon.

FlyingSquid Mod ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Israeli people seem to live just fine under Netanyahu.

People said the same about the Spanish under Franco and Yugoslavia under Tito. Didn't make them any less dictators.

Again, huge numbers of Israelis are demanding an election. Why would they do that if it's a democracy?

rdri ,

You're acting ignorant with the last sentence. There is no line between democracies and dictatorships. There is a long way until we could call Israel a dictatorship. When they will marsh the streets after some next elections get cancelled (unconstitutionally), and huge numbers get arrested, then we'll talk.

FlyingSquid Mod ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Would you prefer Autocracy then?

What exactly would you call a government where a single person acts as a unitary executive and gets everything they want and when people go against him, he just gets rid of them?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/jun/17/benjamin-netanyahu-dissolves-israel-war-cabinet

I'd call that a dictatorship. What would you call it?

rdri ,

You don't need to ask me how I prefer calling a regime in a country in order to make it look bad. I don't have such preferences. There are people suffering in any country including yours, and their lives could get better with new elections. This is not an extraordinary situation.

I don't need to invent words for Israel. I would call it bad when I see it does terrible things to its own people. This is not a case for now and from what I know, there is no imminent conflict/crisis between government and citizens. That's aside from the war conflict/intervention situation of course. I would also appreciate hamas if they did a better job at governing gaza, but instead they bombed it with inaccurate missiles as a side effect of trying to harm Israel. This is a huge difference - I call the Palestinian regime bad because of that, and suggest they could manage it much better. When compared to Israel, I don't see much obvious room for improvement (I don't see a lot of Israeli people suffering) and thus I can't call it bad.

FlyingSquid Mod ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

"Bad" is not a form of government. You claim it isn't a dictatorship. What form of government is it? Don't change the subject.

rdri ,

You're changing the subject by trying to describe it with unsuitable words. Your actual thought is that it's bad and should be changed, but you first tried calling it a dictatorship, then autocracy. People of Israel aren't living in such conditions yet. Better just get back to "doing war is bad" stance.

FlyingSquid Mod ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

https://learn.rumie.org/jR/bytes/what-s-the-difference-between-autocracy-and-dictatorship/

Now... if it is neither an autocracy nor a dictatorship, what is Israel's form of government. Surely you aren't trying to suggest that Israel has no government.

rdri ,

As I said before, there is no line. You can't assume some regime fell into the other side after a short time. These things develop for years. Or could you try to classify the US regime? Surely it's not a democracy when people can only choose between 2.

FlyingSquid Mod ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

At this point it's clear that the reason you can't tell me what form of government Israel has is because you know it's a dictatorship and you can't think of a way to admit that while also maintaining that it isn't one.

Also, the U.S. is a constitutional republic, not a democracy. Classified and done.

rdri ,

As you wish, I don't care. The original comment claimed it to be a dictatorship, it's up to them to provide evidence. They failed.

FlyingSquid Mod ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

You not accepting the evidence does not mean it was not provided.

You not being able to say what form of government Israel is if it is not a dictatorship is good enough evidence for me that you have no argument against the claim.

Either it is a dictatorship or it has a different form of government. You can't say what it is. Your challenge on defining the American government (again, constitutional republic) as if that wasn't possible was quite amusing though.

Forms of government is something my 14-year-old daughter learned in school last semester, so I would think you would be old enough to have been taught what they were. Apparently not.

rdri ,

Your thinking what you provided is an evidence doesn't mean it was it. But by all means, go on.

FlyingSquid Mod ,
@FlyingSquid@lemmy.world avatar

Go on with what? You cannot tell me the type of government Israel has. I answered your challenge about the U.S. government easily.

All you are telling me is you lack a middle schooler's understanding of government.

FluminaInMaria ,

I don't want to get dragged into a petty squabble but it must be said that there's an enormous gulf between having an in-depth, contextual understanding of something as complex as governance/governmental structures; and simply being able to repeat a few top-line sound bites that encompass the general idea of any given subject taught to kids over a few Thursday afternoons.

An average kid won't have any meaningful interest in the majority of subjects they are introduced to at school. They might find it interesting in the moment, but they're not going to win many followers if asked to debate on anything with such a shallow introduction to a subject.

My knowledge of Israeli politics is not sufficient to join either side of your disagreement on this thread, though I have heard a couple of conflicting political commentators in agreement that the current state of affairs is not the result of a Netanyahu policy which is in isolation/contrary to the entirety of the rest of Israeli government.

I just found the comment about high school kids understanding the subject to be a bit triggering and unhelpful.

It's nigh on impossible to know what media and/or commentators to believe. It is an unnerving time. The Hezbollah situation isn't something that has just come out of nowhere, and the way it's generally communicated by a lot of media outlets is unhelpful in it's failure to scratch the surface, leaving readers in a state of helpless panic and fear. There's a lot of very well informed opinion on the subject out there and it wouldn't take much for journalists to at least link to some of it; be it books, past journalism, and commentators from all sides actually directly involved in the conflict. Instead we mainly get disjointed daily updates fanning the fear among readers who don't have enough of an understanding.

We all spend far too much of our spare time as individuals, picking our phones up and doomscrolling. Whether the subject is climate, farming, the economy, health, sustainability, local/national governance, activism, education, neo-liberalism, you name it; rather than reacting to media headlines posted in our echo chambers on a daily basis, proclaiming our despair in disjointed comments sections that get buried every 24 hours: we need to find new ways to engage.

To truly understand a given situation it can take a lifetime of learning about it, yet we bicker between ourselves like we're the leading authority on the subject. We have the technology available to us, to unite en masse in support of positive changes but we have no leaders. We're bombarded with information and we all have our three-month-old, one-sided take on what's going on. There's got to be a better way.

I'm willing to go out on a limb and say that I'm not the only one who works so much of my time, that by the time I've eaten, slept and done basic chores; I've got maybe 1-2 hours a day after dark, plus Saturdays to "be myself", or in my case; spend time with my wife. We don't have kids and if we did, I can't imagine how they would fit into my existing schedule. I feel worked to the bone, for little/no benefit to my own wellbeing. Being myself for an hour before bed each day is hardly what I would call having the freedom to disengage from the rat race and be productive for my own/my community's gain.

It seems obvious to me that the way we live is the problem. There seems to be some very obvious solutions worth trying but we have no hope. We have our half an hour a day to comment online and that's it.

And we're the ones who have an opinion... There are hundreds of millions of people who the system have failed, and have no nourishment to their being at all, be that physical, mental, cultural, spiritual. There are entire blocks of society who just consume without conscience, completely disengaged from anything of merit. How do you tackle that?

We need to make small positive steps to communicate more thoughtfully, be less selfish; and consider ways that we can cooperate more both online and irl; as we're not getting any help from our leaders any time soon.

Keeponstalin ,

The Israeli regime enacts in all the territory it contols (Israeli sovereign territory, East Jerusalem, the West Bank, and the Gaza Strip) an apartheid regime. One organizing principle lies at the base of a wide array of Israeli policies: advancing and perpetuating the supremacy of one group – Jews – over another – Palestinians.

B’Tselem rejects the perception of Israel as a democracy (inside the Green Line) that simultaneously upholds a temporary military occupation (beyond it). B’Tselem reached the conclusion that the bar for defining the Israeli regime as an apartheid regime has been met after considering the accumulation of policies and laws that Israel devised to entrench its control over Palestinians.

President Joe Biden has said that there is “every reason” to believe that Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is continuing his assault on Gaza for political gain, appearing to acknowledge that Netanyahu is not interested in pulling out of the region despite the Biden administration’s insistence that the latest ceasefire deal is backed by Israel.

Protesters demanding new elections in Israel clashed with police near the Jerusalem house of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on Monday after he dissolved the government's War Cabinet, leaving him as the unquestioned decision-maker regarding the eight-month-old conflict in Gaza.

rdri ,

Not helping. Apartheid or not, my criteria is how well government cares about its citizens, and that term ignores that. Political gain or not, my stance is that it started with October 7th attack, which was not prepared by current Israeli government, therefore it's correct to blame another party. Protesters doing their thing is good for everyone, we should start worrying when they are unable to do that anymore due to oppressive laws, police raids etc.

Keeponstalin ,

Sure, if you ignore the discrimination and inequality of the millions of Palestinian citizens of Israel, on top of the millions within the Occupied Territories that have been under Israeli Military Control since 1967. If you ignore all of that, then your criteria of 'how well government cares about its citizens' could make sense.

Yet holding elections is not enough. Totalitarian regimes also engage in a process they refer to as “elections,” but this does not make them democracies. Democratic elections must reflect core principles such as equality, liberty and freedom of expression. These allow not only the act of voting itself, but also the free exchange of ideas and meaningful participation in shaping the future. Democratic elections must also ensure one vote for every citizen that is exactly equal to all others, and allow all citizens to run for office, present their platforms and work to further their agendas. Legal restrictions on voting and on running for office must be extremely limited, if at all permitted.

Roughly 5.5 million Palestinian subjects live in the territories occupied by Israel in 1967: about 3.5 million in the West Bank (including roughly 350,000 in East Jerusalem) and some 2 million in the Gaza Strip. None of them are allowed to vote or run for Knesset, and they have no representation in the political institutions that dictate their lives.

Your criteria doesn't make sense, and ignores the reality of Apartheid. If you consider a democracy based on equality, liberty and freedom of expression, and also consider all aspects of the Apartheid Regime; Israel falls tremendously short of being a Democracy.

rdri ,

have been under Israeli Military Control since 1967.

You didn't see the comment tree? It's about Netanyahu. Are you going to pretend he is responsible for all of that?

If you ignore all of that

When we're talking about whether or not some person is a dictator - yes, its irrelevant. Dictatorship is about having a power against the will of too many citizens, also silencing them, jailing them, killing them etc.

If you consider a democracy

Don't need that. There are not 2 types of government. It may not be a democracy, but it's similarly difficult to qualify as a dictatorship.

Palestinian citizens are about 20% of Israeli population. Black people are about 14% of the US population. Both of them hold legal citizenships and rights but often face disparities. Does that make the US an apartheid by your logic?

Keeponstalin ,

It's about Netanyahu. Are you going to pretend he is responsible for all of that?

Considering he's part of the Likud party which was created out of the Lehi and Irgun, it's certainly relevant.

Dictatorship is about having a power against the will of too many citizens, also silencing them, jailing them, killing them etc.

That is the reality for Palestinians, yes

Palestinian citizens are about 20% of Israeli population. Black people are about 14% of the US population. Both of them hold legal citizenships and rights but often face disparities. Does that make the US an apartheid by your logic?

Again, you are conveniently ignoring the Palestinians within the Occupied Territories. And yes, America during Chattel Slavery, where Black people did not have citizenship, was certainly a form of Apartheid.

rdri ,

Whatever you prefer calling occupied territories, I don't consider a subject for dictatorship. Dictatorship is something I consider an internal state of the country, so no other territories should affect it. An aggression on neighbouring territories can be a result of dictatorship but never a reason for it. So whatever is going on with "occupied" territories is not a subject for this discussion for me.

Keeponstalin ,

This is not a normal temporary occupation. The West Bank and Gaza as occupied territories were created by the Ethnic Cleansing of the indigenous Palestinian people from the Zionist Campaign of Plan Dalet starting in 1947. The West Bank, Gaza, and the rest of Israel are all Historic Palestine. The permanent occupation / apartheid is a direct result of Settler Colonialism.

These are not 'neighboring territories' like France and Spain would be. Would you also ignore the bantustans of Apartheid South Africa when determining if that government was a dictatorship or not? Or the Native American reservations of America during Manifest Destiny?

rdri ,

Occupation is never normal. I'm not ignoring it. Just saying that dictatorship is a different thing that is hardly related to it this case and otherwise too. Also my point is that it just looks increasingly stupid when people ar first blamed Israel for being bloodthirsty killers and then switched to "oh that's all because Netanyahu wants to remain in power", as if it would immediately cease if Netanyahu disappears.

Keeponstalin ,

Maybe not explicitly a Dictatorship, but practically all parties of Israel, from Labor to Likud, have all been pro-apartheid since their origins as the Haganah, Irgun, and Lehi. I certainly agree that Netanyahu is not the cause of Israel engaging in Ethnic Cleansing. Forced Transfer has been core to Zionism since the late 1800's. Even Netanyahu's only substantial opposition, Benny Gantz, is just as bloodthirsty. My point is that an Apartheid State is incompatible with Democracy.

rdri ,

My point is that dictatorship mainly affects real citizens, making their lives worse. Israel cares about its citizens adequately from what I see. There are no grave political crisis or tons of citizens suffering from inadequate laws or false accusations. Israeli people are fine. There is only Gaza and Palestinians Israel is dealing with, and I leave that out of context because those are outside of political regime definition for me.

Keeponstalin ,

There is only Gaza and Palestinians Israel is dealing with, and I leave that out of context because those are outside of political regime definition for me.

Then you fail to understand the reality of the Apartheid Regime

rdri ,

Like I said, apartheid part is irrelevant in a "dictatorship or not" definition. If most Israeli people don't feel themselves being under a dictatorship then it is not a dictatorship. What the regime does towards Palestine and its citizens is another thing. In fact, if you insist on calling it a dictatorship based on what happens to Palestine and Palestinians I'd feel as if you would assume there is no Palestine outside of Israel.

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