problematicPanther ,
@problematicPanther@lemmy.world avatar

Get fuckt

Adderbox76 ,

translation: "We absolutely reject the notion that it is a genocide because it implies that America helped to arm and fund a genocide and America would never do such a thing...we're the good guys. Good guys don't commit genocide. ergo, not genocide. My logic is unimpeachable. /s

unreasonabro ,

what's happening in America is not democracy, Joe, but what's happening in Gaza is absolutely genocide, and has been since the 1940s.

Eyck_of_denesle ,

Where are the Biden boyfriends that call everyone that criticizes biden a Trump supporter? I said multiple times on lemmy that a lot of people go above and beyond to support this horrible person who repeatedly mentioned his fantasies for an israeli state and serving it since he was a kid.

Trump is worse but that doesn't mean you can't criticize this piece of shit.

And the worst thing is I live far away from the US and still get called Trump supporter for calling this sicko a sicko.

WolfLink ,

There’s a lot of people who think it’s a good idea to not vote in the hope that Biden will lose and that will teach the DNC a lesson.

Tryptaminev ,

That is a bit shortened. We demand Biden to stop supporting this genocide and start upholding international and US law in order to get a vote.

Saying you will vote for him no matter what just encourages the DNC to do whatever they want. Democrats fear the pro Israel lobby as that lobby will follow through on not giving them their votes, if they dont play their ball. If other people would realize their power by following through if the Dems refuse to listen, they could force the Dems to actually be a party of human rights and basic dignity and justice for all.

WolfLink ,

The thing is, we either get 2 more years of Biden, or 2 more years of Trump. Besides this one issue I don’t think Biden has been that bad. Trump and more broadly republicans have publicly declared their intent to move the country towards a dictatorship.

In the election 2 years from now, if Biden is the president, we will have an interesting primary to see who is the next DNC candidate. If Trump is president, I’m not sure the country will be in a state where that’s possible (not to mention that if it doesn’t get that bad, the DNC will likely put Biden on the ballot regardless of what happens this year).

prole ,
@prole@sh.itjust.works avatar

The thing is, we either get 2 more years of Biden, or 2 more years of Trump.

And

Trump and more broadly republicans have publicly declared their intent to move the country towards a dictatorship.

Are incongruent.

Also, how long do you think presidential terms are? Why do you think we're going to have another presidential election in 2 years?

You do realize that the election is this year right? Even further, if Biden wins this year, he couldn't run for a third term if he (and the DNC) wanted.

Most importantly: if Trump wins this year, it won't just be "2 more years of Trump." If we listen to what Trump and the GOP has been telling us they will do (and we fucking should, read "Project 2025”), it won't even be only 4 more years of Trump. It will mark the beginning of the Trump Family Dynasty and his name will rule the country for generations. You want Emperor Barron? I wish this was fucking hyperbole.

They're not "moving toward a dictatorship," this is it. This election will decide if democracy continues to exist in the US at all.

He'll also be far far worse than Biden/Democrats regarding the one topic these people seem to suddenly give a shit about.

It's shameful. To use the plight of the Palestinian people as a political cudgel. If these people gave a shit about this genocide, they would recognize that allowing Trump into the White House again will make it sooooooo much worse. Don't think "it can't get worse," because we're about to see it if he wins.

Eyck_of_denesle ,

Understandable but some people forget that countries other than US exist. Like I can't vote there lol. But I do understand your point. I'm just a bit irritated at lemmy users assuming everyone as an American.

prole ,
@prole@sh.itjust.works avatar

that call everyone that criticizes biden a Trump supporter

Disingenuous as fuck.

UnderpantsWeevil ,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

Trump is worse but that doesn’t mean you can’t criticize this piece of shit.

Trump says the quiet parts out loud. That's what ultimately makes him "worse". While Biden's handlers give him the PC

Um, Actually its not a real genocide because it didn't occur in the genocide region of Auschwitz,

Trump's out there saying

Israel is killing all the terrorists and that's good aktuly and we should be more like them.

But get down to the policies at hand and there's no daylight between them.

So much of this election boils down to liberals being forced to face the nightmarish specter of modern American policy even from within their blue state enclaves. With Biden, they can pretend its all being done for good reasons and with a respectable veneer of Rules Based Internationalism. With Trump, they're forced to watch a guy fuck the rest of the planet with the lights on, while his backers whoop and cheer and siege hail on national television.

But it boils down to optics. Whether we're gearing up to bomb Iran, whether we're buy Xinjiang textiles with one hand while wagging a finger at Beijing with the other, whether we're giving Exxon subsidies to "research hydrogen alternatives" or just cutting them blank checks to drill baby drill, whether we're holding kids in cages on the border under a rogue Republican governor or a fascist Republican president, its all the same fucking policies.

Aux ,

Guys, can you vote for some third candidate in the US? You have two utter shits as primary candidates, what the actual fuck?

blackbirdbiryani ,

They have first-past-the-post voting. So no, unfortunately.

dvoraqs ,

Nope, our election system doesn't support it and actually has a spoiler effect because you end up tacitly supporting the other side by not voting for one of the two strongest parties.

Eyck_of_denesle ,

Better situation than India 😩. One side we have a leftist younger leader who got character assassinated. And the other side is a dictator that follows an ideology similar to nazism. And people got so brainwashed in the last 10 hears of his rule that it won't be shocking if India transforms into a one party rule like CCP.

insaan ,

In "safe" states like California, where Trump will never win, we can vote third party as a protest vote without worrying that we'll help Trump get elected.

In states with a very thin margin ("swing" states), fewer votes for Biden could very well mean Trump winning that state.

CanadaPlus ,

Oh, well it's totally okay then. /s

He's might be technically right so far, since most of the population is still standing, but depending on where things go next this line could be remembered along with "peace in our time".

Maggoty ,

You don't need to be successful to have committed the crime.

Baylahoo ,

I see it as a classic intent vs outcome. If someone tries to commit atrocities and fails then their moral character is just as bad. People can change and reform but the attempt, exuberance, and time involved are all bigger signals than how the victim is affected. Incompetence can't be a defense for evil at a certain point.

CanadaPlus ,

Technically is doing a lot of work here, that was the point.

That being said, requirement for success varies by crime (murder charges are only used if it works), and success usually has to be reasonably forseeable in the cases where it isn't. Genocide would definitely be in the latter category, and as it is it will be very hard for ZA's lawyers to prove to the ICJ that Israel has attempted to kill all Palestinians in Gaza, given that only a fraction are actually dead, and Israel could do it very easily if they committed to it.

IANAL

Maggoty ,

You should go read what the UN has to say about genocide. You are wrong. The idea that you have to kill most or all of a group to be guilty of genocide is the biggest misconception there is about it. The entire idea is to prevent it from starting and if it does start, stop it before it gets to the proportions of the Holocaust. At any rate the ICJ just today ordered Israel to halt it's offensive; allow official access for UN war crimes investigators; and let in all of the aid it's holding at the borders. Netanyahu immediately refused all three orders.

How much more clear does it need to be?

Edit to add - Just because I can't not. Attempted Murder is the crime they charge for trying to murder someone. So no you don't get away just because you failed. And Israel is a lot closer to succeeding than it is failing.

CanadaPlus ,

Yeah, attempted murder is a different charge. That was, again, the point.

Technically is doing a lot of work here, that was the point.

^ You're responding to something other than what I said, so I'll just repost this.

The UN has written a lot about genocide, at various different levels with different levels of authority. Not all of it matches, and the only thing that's definitely included is trying to remove a group one of the 5 ways listed.

At any rate the ICJ just today ordered Israel to halt it’s offensive; allow official access for UN war crimes investigators; and let in all of the aid it’s holding at the borders. Netanyahu immediately refused all three orders.

Yep, although that wasn't a ruling on the charge of genocide itself.

Maggoty ,

Who cares what the specific charge is? Attempting the crime is still illegal. That's the point. And those 5 ways are the definitions of Genocide.

CanadaPlus ,

Lawyers, judges, fact checkers. I'm not the first two, but I like to play at the third.

If you're going by the Geneva convention and not something from the Lemkin school of thought, it's easier to talk about. There's an effort to create conditions of life which will kill Palestinians, and limited success, but calculated to destroy in whole or part is the sticky bit, since the body count is still low compared to the population. I don't know, it's like a drunk that beat someone severely. Was it a poor attempt to kill, or just a successful attempt to maim? The standard of proof required is usually beyond reasonable doubt.

If you were to put using starvation as a weapon or collective punishment to them, there wouldn't be much doubt, but those are (slightly) lesser charges. Just like you could indict the drunk for aggravated assault or similar fairly plausibly.

Maggoty ,

How is a man made famine not calculated to destroy them at least in part? This isn't a case of aid just having trouble. Israel refuses to let the vast majority of it into Gaza.

CanadaPlus ,

If they stopped now, no significant part would be destroyed. They won't, but that's a matter of prediction, not fact.

Maggoty ,

Okay? And that's a bad thing? Again, the goal is to recognize it happening and stop it in time to save people. Not to sit back and declare it after it's done.

CanadaPlus , (edited )

No man, the goal was to comment on the factual veracity of the claim made, as a form of contributing to the discussion. I've been trying to tell you that's all I'm doing.

It's possible, and often desirable, to talk about a specific idea without immediately connecting it to anything else.

Maggoty ,

No. You said Biden was right because most of the population isn't dead yet. That is categorically wrong. No part of the definition of Genocide requires waiting until some magic number of people have been killed.

CanadaPlus , (edited )

Alright, well, I think I've said what I need to about that. I let the exchange as it stands speak for itself.

itslilith ,
@itslilith@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

Genocide, per it's UN definition, just requires "actions with the intend to destroy, in whole or in part". So no, just because they're not done yet doesn't mean it's not genocide

Asafum ,

Doesn't that make every war genocide?

Mostly_Harmless_Variant ,

Hamas is a terrorist group. Not all Palestinians are Hamas. Israel is targeting Hamas. They have done their best to minimize Palestinian civilian causalities. It's not genocide. If they were going for genocide, this would have been over with a long time ago.

The problem is, we as the general public, have gut reactions to things we don't understand and aren't directly involved in. This is made worse with misinformation and poor Internet literacy.

Another problem is that many Americans' view points are sympathetic to terrorists. But, as I've heard somewhere "one person's terrorist is another's freedom fighter." These people believe Hamas aren't terrorists and are wrongly being fired upon, therefore Israel is bad.

Another group, Trump supporters and the like, will twist anything Biden does negatively because it doesn't align with their narrative.

CanadaPlus ,

They have done their best to minimize Palestinian civilian causalities.

Where does denying entry of food and water to the whole strip factor in to that?

Also, mandatory comment that terrorist is a meaningless word, since I don't want it being used as a rhetorical crutch. I don't like Hamas because they are brutal theocrats who care nothing for human rights.

Wes4Humanity ,

Hey! That's the same reason I don't like Israel!

(I also don't like Hamas)

cupcakezealot ,
@cupcakezealot@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

he's right, though. It's a humanitarian crisis but it's factually incorrect to call it a genocide (and it also minimizes the actual horror of genocide).

CanadaPlus ,

For now.

SwingingTheLamp ,

What, specifically, do you think South Africa got wrong in its filing with the ICC laying out the case that it is a genocide? They were pretty thorough.

ParabolicMotion ,

I think the ICC is handling it better. There are two groups in that area that want to murder people, and there are now warrants issued for their arrest. I just don’t think America should have become directly involved.

Building a pier and trying to send in aid is a nice gesture, but Palestinians are killing each other for those boxes of food, and Israelis are attacking aid vehicles. It’s starting to look like Blackhawk Down.

Biden backed Israel by giving them weapons because Hamas had taken so many Israelis hostage. If he had picked the other side when news of the hostages began to spread, society would have been calling him a Nazi.

Both sides in this war want to kill each other. There are children in both sides of these groups that are suffering. How can anyone pick a side and hope that they kill the other side? It’s inhumane. Let the terrorists be arrested.

Asafum ,

The problem is politics of course. Biden and the Democrats need the "Jewish vote" and their PAC dominates. We've already promised for decades now that we'd assist with the defense of Isreal and so they feel forced to follow through and pander to the Jewish community.

What SHOULD happen is we say "your DEFENSE is assured, we will continue to assist with the iron dome and whatever anti-rocket technology is required to DEFEND your citizens. We WILL NOT assist with the INVASION of Palestine."

But no... That's too much to ask apparently...

undergroundoverground ,

Its not genocide because its not from the Atroci region of sub saharan Africa or the Geno region of Central and Eastern Europe.

It's actually sparkling murder induced relocation of an indigenous people, based solely on their ethnic identity, specifically to bring about the destruction of said ethnic group.

I hope that clears everything up.

Aceticon ,

So, how much and for how long does one need to support a genocidal fascist movement actively murdering civilians including tens of thousands of children, before it's fair to describe such a person as a genocidal fascist himself?

tsonfeir ,
@tsonfeir@lemm.ee avatar

I support a lot of really nice people, but that doesn’t make me one.

Aceticon , (edited )

Do you activelly help them do good deeds or is your support for them only in your own mind and never voiced or only voiced because you think it's a net positive for you to be preceived as "supporting good people"?

Because what we're talking about with Biden and Zionism is equivalent to a guy who gives guns and ammo to Ku-Klux-Klan members activelly killing Afro-Americans, loudly proclaims he supports the Ku-Klux-Klan, denounces "n*gers" to the Ku-Klux-Klan, all the while loudly proclaiming the Ku-Klux-Klan is only defending themselves, claiming that courts prossecuting Ku-Klux-Klan members are wrong in doing so and that the Ku-Klux-Klan are not racists.

Kinda seems like such a person has well and trully crossed the boundary from "fair person" into "unjust to people who look different", the boundary after than into "racist", the boundary after that into "supporting racially motivated violence" and even the boundary after that into "supporting racially motivated murder".

Sure, such person hasn' actually killed any Afro-Americans himself. Does him not doing himself the deeds he so strongly supports really mean he's not a murder-supporting racist?

Mind you, my methaphor breaks here because the Ku-Klux-Klan didn't murder anywhere as many people as the Zionists, so the metaphor doens't really cover Genocide and supporting it.

tsonfeir ,
@tsonfeir@lemm.ee avatar

If they ask, sure.

MrMeanJavaBean , (edited )

This is what we get when the Boomer mind set is still in charge. Hopefully a younger person would have only supplied Israel with defense, Iron Dome, etc... and not weapons, bombs to attack. Unfortunately we are stuck with the choice of 2 Boomers.

I still don't get how there are one issue voters. Trump would be much worse on this many other issues to say the least. Giving Trump 4 more years to further wreck our democracy and appoint more Far-Right Supreme court justices is totally short sighted. I've been voting since 2000 (Edit: this kinda makes me sound like a douche, "I've been voting for years so listen to me!" Sorry aboot dat), and protest votes or not voting only gets Republicans elected. Just like Paul Weyrich said Paul Wayrich

LostWon ,

Biden's older than a Boomer though, he's Silent Generation. (Trump is on the older end, but indeed a Boomer.) I'm curious if you'll ever have a Gen X president some day, but it's not really generation that matters so much as having someone of reasonable intelligence who has empathy and integrity instead of yet another power-networking fundraising wizard.

MrMeanJavaBean ,

Damn, you're right. My bad. You can't be a Boomer until after WWII, duh that was silly. Thanks 👍

Linkerbaan ,
@Linkerbaan@lemmy.world avatar

Tankie Joe doing some more Genocide denial.

Bow down for glorious overlord Netanyahu everyone.

TurboHarbinger ,

Is not genocide if you don't consider them people, right? Just animal victims.

wildcardology ,

Yeah, Americans should brace for a Trump dictatorship after this statement.

Bahalex ,

And even more kowtowing and pandering.

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