TIL 40 states in the US charge you $20-$80 a day for being incarcerated in prison. ( en.m.wikipedia.org )

Very weird that I am so old and have literally never heard this mentioned in a TV show or book or movie or anything.

In four out of five states, if you go to prison, you are literally paying for the time you spend there.

As you can guess, this results in crippling debt as soon as you're released.

The county gets back a fraction of what they hold over your head the rest of your life until you commit suicide(or die naturally and peacefully with the sword of damocles hanging over your head).

$20-$80 a day according to Rutgers.

Counties apparently sue people and employ wage garnishment to get back the money that majority of people obviously cannot pay back.

https://www.rutgers.edu/news/states-unfairly-burdening-incarcerated-people-pay-stay-fees

FlashMobOfOne ,
@FlashMobOfOne@lemmy.world avatar

That's the beauty of both ruling parties being 100% in support of the prison industrial complex. In fact, our current president even helped usher through the '94 Crime Bill, which keeps prisons nice and full for his golf buddies and institutional donors.

Ookami38 ,

Remember, though, that people, opinions, and political landscapes can change. Yes, Biden was pretty shit back in the 90s, but it actually feels a little bit like he's trying to move back in the other direction. Don't gotta forget the bad, but also can't forget the (attempts at) good

Dkarma ,

Right it's important to remember 94 was literally 30 years ago. Attitudes can change significantly in that time.

FlashMobOfOne ,
@FlashMobOfOne@lemmy.world avatar

Remember, though, that people, opinions, and political landscapes can change.

Yeah, but Biden hasn't.

Remember when he mocked 'Defund the Police' in his first state of the union address?

He's an authoritarian. Always has been, and he's been a reliable vote in favor of every regressive piece of legislation that's led the country to this point, where fascism is becoming normalized.

laughterlaughter ,

Oh, please. If he was an authoritarian, he would behave like Trump or any other authoritarian ruler out there.

Remember when Trump was president? He would kick reporters out of the white house, or tear gas people in front of the white house for a photo op. He said stuff like "I totally won't do this," then the very following day, he would do that. His speech was divisive. Should I go on?

FlashMobOfOne ,
@FlashMobOfOne@lemmy.world avatar

Just because Trump was more personally belligerent doesn't change the fact that Biden is an authoritarian.

laughterlaughter ,

You just spotted my flawed argument. True. Biden is not authoritarian, though.

Tell me how is Biden authoritarian, Russian Agent ?

FlashMobOfOne ,
@FlashMobOfOne@lemmy.world avatar

Going ad hominem just makes you look sillier.

Jax ,

And yet, the only person I'm thinking of mocking is you

FlashMobOfOne ,
@FlashMobOfOne@lemmy.world avatar

Right, because you're insecure about the fact that you can't rebut my replies.

The problem with that is we all have to suffer for the insistence of you and yours to elect these people.

keyez ,

Funny the left feels the EXACT same way, report to your handlers/Putin your job was done for today and some fresh air would be a good idea.

laughterlaughter ,

I asked you a question, Chat GPT spawn. Answer it.

Ookami38 ,

He's had some policies I agree with, that move us towards a less police state level. I admit, I haven't followed him super closely, he's less interesting than things have been lately, but at least the federal decriminalization of marijuana and pardons (I know they were effectively useless, didn't really do anything - we can get into exactly why) show he's at least trying to do what constituents want, which is a far cry more than a lot of other politicians.

Can he, should he, do more? Yeah. But credit where it's due, he seems like he's trying to steer two giant ships - his own past biases, and the United States political climate. Both of those are slow and hard to do, so anything moving in that direction should be celebrated.

havokdj ,

Don't be fooled, Joe doesn't give a shit about decriminalizing any substance, after all, he wqs the biggest proponent of the RAVE act

Ookami38 ,

See, this is EXACTLY my point. We all get obsessed over the things of the past, and while those can help inform us of the present, they're not actually the present.

Yes, he was a proponent of the RAVE act. That's one of those "don't forget the bads" that I mentioned. We can accept that, and also accept that he seems to have lightened up on that BS in recent times.

No one's perfect, everyone changes their minds about things. You did horrible things in your past too, almost certainly. That's not you, we can accept that, but for politicians it's this unchanging thing - you supported one thing, you will always continue supporting that thing.

Let people grow. Let ideas be brought up, and shot down. Let mistakes be in the past, and start focusing on what's actually happening in the present.

havokdj ,

It's not about "being obsessed with the past" it's about paying attention to history, particularly a certain person's history. Joe biden had not been even remotely interested in legalization/decriminalization until he started running for office. Joe Biden was already an old man when he pushed for enforcement of the RAVE act along with other drug bills, I can maybe understand his "concrete jungle" statements from the 70's, but we are literally talking about barely over 20 years ago.

All I am saying is to be cautious and not too trusting, ESPECIALLY of politicians.

Ookami38 ,

Right. As I said, you can use the past to color your present, but the thing that matters presently is present actions and, to a lesser extent, words. So, judging him based on his actions during presidency, which should show us either his current beliefs or, at least, his willingness to listen to constituents.

During his presidency, he's been... Well, I won't say stellar, but his actions have been more in line with someone who actually wants better, rather than someone who wants to cling to old habits. Again, could he do more, yes. But his record -recently- has been, for a politician, pretty good.

You bring up the RAVE act. That was 20 years ago. 20 of the most eventful years in at least modern history. Do you think someone is incapable of change for 20 years? I know I've changed drastically just in the last 2 or 3 years. I mean, yeah, he's old, but I've seen old people change too. Might not come full revolution, change is slow, but again - any progress is worth acknowledging and celebrating.

Is there something he's done during his presidency that leads you to believe he's still got those same values from prior? We can talk efficacy of some of his planned solutions, and some of his lack of a spine, but I think overall his actions are consistent with his words, in this regard.

havokdj ,

I agree with you for the most part, but at the end of the day, you have to take someone in power action by action. Everyone who has ever held office has pretty much done at least one or two good things for their community. I'm not saying that I'm totally anti Joe Biden, but I think that he (like all politicians) can be full of shit sometimes. Remember back when he got elected, he proceeded to undo everything trump did about border control and even made that a big part of his campaign? As of late, he has slowly been reimplementing those policies. I think Biden is someone who rides off emotion and public feedback in relation to followers of his party, which can be a good thing but it can also be a bad thing.

HawlSera ,

People change as the issues become more apparent, when Obama was elected he said he "Respected the LGBT Community" but firmly believed "Marriage is between a man and a woman"

This same president gave us Gay Marriage in all 50 states

goldenlocks ,

Liberals hate the fact they openly support a right wing segregationist authoritarian

FlashMobOfOne ,
@FlashMobOfOne@lemmy.world avatar

They don't hate that fact enough, unfortunately.

Aolley ,

When in most of our lifetimes has the u.s. presidental election not been 'the lesser of two evils'?

FlashMobOfOne ,
@FlashMobOfOne@lemmy.world avatar

This excuse, to me, seems to emphasize the necessity of a third-party vote even more.

DAMunzy ,

Yeah, he wants to be known as a good guy. Look at GW Bush. They all want to be known as good guys late in life. Gates, Buffet, et al.

havokdj ,

RAVE act

fukurthumz420 ,

so then vote for trump, right? gtfooh

FlashMobOfOne ,
@FlashMobOfOne@lemmy.world avatar

I vote third party.

Choosing between a giant douche and a turd sandwich isn't very appealing to me.

Also, people like you pretending you didn't need the votes of people like me is how we got Trump in the first place.

fukurthumz420 ,

sure. hold humanity hostage because you can't get exactly what you want, traitor. i'm not going to kiss your ass to vote for practical results. if you're too blind to see what you're doing, you can live with the consequences. i have a feeling you have a lot more time left on this planet than i do, junior.

Tattorack ,
@Tattorack@lemmy.world avatar

Jesus Christ, you're calling another person a traitor over... this. XD

You Americans are like a bad parody. What a terrible farce this is.

MalachaiConstant ,

In a two party system, voting third party will only ever result in your vote being thrown out. It is taking a stand against reality for the sake of your own personal idealism.

A lot of left-aligned voters learned that lesson the hard way in 2016. If you didn't learn the lesson, you either weren't paying attention or your idealism is more important to you than the actual outcome of the vote.

Doing that willingly, despite (or maybe because) the rest of your side screaming at you not to fuck this up again, is absolutely a level of betrayal.

Tattorack ,
@Tattorack@lemmy.world avatar

Yeah, this whole explanation is just you saying "Our country is broken and I don't want to fix it".

MalachaiConstant ,

More like "you think you're helping but you are not"

KrapKake ,

Yea OK, just keep voting for same parties over and over again. Let's just maintain the shitty status quo where nothing really gets better regardless of who is in office!

MalachaiConstant ,

So your solution is to vote in protest for a party you know won't win.

I'm actually curious now, what possible good do you think that's doing?

awwwyissss ,

Blah blah blah same propaganda, same lies. Even a fool could say you're trying to get Trump elected.

samus12345 ,
@samus12345@lemmy.world avatar

https://frinkiac.com/video/S08E01/J7yIZo53_hGwrjk055XwG-6sTLQ=.gif

i_ben_fine ,

Oh no! somebody criticized Biden!

fukurthumz420 ,

criticize him all you want... after he's elected.

we all hate the either/or state of american politics, but it's still the reality. live in reality, ppl.

i_ben_fine ,

after he's elected

what?

fukurthumz420 ,

what don't you understand about my statement?

samus12345 ,
@samus12345@lemmy.world avatar

Re-elected, of course.

goldenlocks ,

You consent to all these issues with your vote for Dems. I on the other hand will express democracy by voting for a candidate that opposes this: Jill Stein.

fukurthumz420 ,

you mean to tell me you're going to vote for jill stein in november? what state do you live in? it better not be a battle ground state

goldenlocks ,

Absolutely, because she is the candidate of the largest party I agree with.

fukurthumz420 ,

do you understand how american elections work? are you in a battleground state?

goldenlocks ,

That is how elections work, I'm the one acting democratically here

fukurthumz420 ,

DO. YOU. LIVE. IN. A BATTLEGROUND STATE?

goldenlocks ,

Irrelevant. Stein is closest to what I support, so I vote for her.

fukurthumz420 ,

i'm not going to argue with you. i can see from your comment history that you're a lost cause. you are damning people to consequences they don't deserve, which makes you no different from conservatives. you are effectively the enemy and deserve to be treated the same.

goldenlocks ,

you are damning people to consequences they don’t deserve

This is you telling poor people to vote for wealthy Dems

fukurthumz420 ,

this is me telling you to pull your head out of your ass and think about consequences. stop replying to me. i have nothing more to say to you, traitor.

goldenlocks ,

this is me telling you to pull your head out of your ass and think about consequences

You can't even accept you consent to bombing children in Gaza with your Biden vote.

stop replying to me. i have nothing more to say to you, traitor.

You lost the argument, and now are trying to find a way out lmao.

fukurthumz420 ,

You can’t even accept you consent to bombing children in Gaza with your Biden vote.

nah. my vote doesn't mean that. what a very dumb thing to say, traitor.

You lost the argument, and now are trying to find a way out lmao.

lol. you're fucking delusional, traitor.

goldenlocks ,

nah. my vote doesn’t mean that. what a very dumb thing to say, traitor.

It literally does whether you want to accept it or not. We provide money and weapons to bomb children, you vote in support of the president doing this.

lol. you’re fucking delusional, traitor.

The only traitor here is you voting for corporate fascism, willfully voting in support of the rich.

fukurthumz420 ,

nope. fuck off.

goldenlocks ,

The truth hurts

i_ben_fine ,

What are you going to do about it?

Olgratin_Magmatoe ,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoiler_effect

https://fairvote.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/Blog-Image-Template-New.png

goldenlocks ,

Biden or Trump winning is a major loss. Instead build a better party instead of complaining.

Olgratin_Magmatoe ,

Biden or Trump winning is a major loss.

They aren't equal. They're both shit, but they aren't equal. And I don't know about you, but I'd rather keep my right to vote, which is under threat thanks to the likes of Trump.

Instead build a better party instead of complaining.

Not seeing anything you've built. All I see is you complaining about Biden and Trump.

If you want better, we need electoral reform. Our current system is mathematically biased against third parties.

emeralddawn45 ,

How do you think you get electoral reform? Because the democrats sure as hell are never gonna give it to you if you keep voting for their garbage bottom of the barrel candidates. American politics really are a shit show, you're trying to act like you're the reasonable one but getting so damn belligerent.

Olgratin_Magmatoe ,

How do you think you get electoral reform?

Mass protests, general strikes, voting in progressives that actually stand a chance, etc.

Because the democrats sure as hell are never gonna give it to you

I know they won't, which is why you vote in the primaries.

You know who sure as hell are never gonna give it to you? Third party candidates. You can't make reform if you don't get voted into office in the first place.

you keep voting for their garbage bottom of the barrel candidates.

Genrrallt you don't get bottom of the barrel candidates if you actually work to put forth good candidates in the primaries. And a bottom of the barrel democrat with always be better than an outright fascist republican.

you’re trying to act like you’re the reasonable one but getting so damn belligerent.

Hey, if you don't like how I'm responding, maybe don't start with saying things like

  • "build a better party instead of complaining."

Practice what you speak.

emeralddawn45 ,

Name one time when you havent gotten a bottom of the barrel candidate? Look what they did to my boy Bernie. He wasn't even ideal but at least he had a shot and the democrats you're praising tanked him. They're playing you, intentionally holding up an awful boogeyman constantly and saying "if you don't vote for our piece of shit we're gonna give you the bigger piece of shit." The only way to win is not to play their game. Maybe if they lose enough voters they'll get the message but they sure as hell won't if you keep letting them win.

Olgratin_Magmatoe ,

Name one time when you havent gotten a bottom of the barrel candidate?

Summer Lee

I've voted for her at least 4 times now to get her into office and keep her there throughout the last few primaries and generals.

Look what they did to my boy Bernie.

I am well aware, and I'm pissee off about that too. It should have been Bernie for the last 8 years.

He wasn’t even ideal but at least he had a shot and the democrats you’re praising tanked him.

I think you don't understand where I am coming from. In no way am I praising the democrats that tanked him.

They’re playing you, intentionally holding up an awful boogeyman constantly and saying “if you don’t vote for our piece of shit we’re gonna give you the bigger piece of shit.”

Yeah, I know they're using it to their advantage. It shitty as fuck, and a direct result of our electoral system. They know that third parties aren't viable due to the mathematical requirement of the spoiler effect being a part of our current system. So they use it to their advantage.

But there is the thing, under Trump, we may lose our right to vote. We might end up seeing a true dictatorship. He's already floating the idea of a second Jan 6th.

I'd rather live in the current corporate run dystopia than an outright fascist version called Gilead.

The only way to win is not to play their game.

Yeah, I'm really going to feel like I'm winning when I'm lined up against a wall under the next Trump administration.

Maybe if they lose enough voters they’ll get the message but they sure as hell won’t if you keep letting them win.

The Biden campaign managers know they're losing voters to this shit, they aren't that stupid. They're gambling that the status quo will land them the most votes. It's fucking stupid, but they clearly don't care about losing votes to this issue.

goldenlocks ,

Summer Lee

The one who just voted for the military industrial complex with H.R.8035?

I am well aware, and I’m pissee off about that too. It should have been Bernie for the last 8 years.

You continue to vote for a party that has a rigged primary with super delegates.

I’d rather live in the current corporate run dystopia than an outright fascist version called Gilead.

Remember you consented to this.

Olgratin_Magmatoe , (edited )

The one who just voted for the military industrial complex with H.R.8035?

The request was for "not bottom of the barrel", not perfect. If you're looking for a perfect politician, you've defined an impossible task.

You continue to vote for a party that has a rigged primary with super delegates.

No. I vote against the worst, the party openly embracing fascism.

Remember you consented to this.

I'd rather consent to corporate run dystopia than fascism.

Meanwhile you're consenting to fascism with your choice to throw away your vote. You do not have the high ground here.

goldenlocks ,

The request was for “not bottom of the barrel”, not perfect. If you’re looking for a perfect politician, you’ve defined an impossible task.

We have different standards. I couldn't live with myself voting for billions to Raytheon and Boeing like you do.

No. I vote against the worst, the party openly embracing fascism.

You could do that without voting for "corporate run dystopia" by voting green party.

I’d rather consent to corporate run dystopia than fascism.

I'm consenting to neither.

Meanwhile you’re consenting to fascism with your choice to throw away your vote. You do not have the high ground here.

Nope. You just admitted that you are. This is how voting works lmao. I'm literally not by casting a vote against it, and you are.

Olgratin_Magmatoe ,

We have different standards. I couldn’t live with myself voting for billions to Raytheon and Boeing like you do.

Voting for a politician is not an open agreement with every action they take. I didn't vote for billions to go to war manufacturers. I voted against Trump.

You could do that without voting for “corporate run dystopia” by voting green party.

Thus splitting the vote and landing us in Gilead, no thanks. I don't want to get killed by the state for being LGBTQ+

I’m consenting to neither.

I’m literally not by casting a vote against it, and you are.

Gonna straight up steal from a different user.

"Voting does sort of make you complicit, honestly.

But guess what? Not voting also makes you complicit. So does voting in a way that has no chance of having an effect based on the current rules.

Basically, existing as an eligible voter, at least in a country where voting isn't rigged (so like, Russians are off the hook here, for example) makes you complicit in your government's actions.

That's kind of a big point of being in a democratic society - we are all, every one of us, responsible for the actions of our government.

And if you don't like that responsibility, I get it, I totally sympathize, because I agree. I hate that responsibility, especially cause I know damn well I'm not qualified to make those decisions. But I still am responsible, and pretending I'm not doesn't change that."

https://lemmy.world/comment/9735774

So bullshit. I'm assuming you voted 3rd party in 2016. You chose to vote in a way that had no chance of having any effect to stave off Trump. So you are complicit in Trump. You consented to Trump. And thanks to people like you, we are now losing abortion access. The SCOTUS is now openly debating if a president can have political opponents killed. The road of fascism we are heading down is directly a result of people limply throwing pissing their vote into the wind.

goldenlocks ,

Voting for a politician is not an open agreement with every action they take. I didn’t vote for billions to go to war manufacturers.

You literally did, and are planning to in November.

I voted against Trump.

Same here, by voting for the green party.

Thus splitting the vote and landing us in Gilead, no thanks. I don’t want to get killed by the state for being LGBTQ+

Nope. Most green voters I've convinced have been non-voters. They are the biggest voting block.

That’s kind of a big point of being in a democratic society - we are all, every one of us, responsible for the actions of our government.

They just described why I vote green party.

And if you don’t like that responsibility, I get it, I totally sympathize, because I agree. I hate that responsibility, especially cause I know damn well I’m not qualified to make those decisions. But I still am responsible, and pretending I’m not doesn’t change that.

Yes, that's why we're responsible for building a better party, very simple to understand.

So bullshit. I’m assuming you voted 3rd party in 2016. You chose to vote in a way that had no chance of having any effect to stave off Trump. So you are complicit in Trump. You consented to Trump. And thanks to people like you, we are now losing abortion access. The SCOTUS is now openly debating if a president can have political opponents killed. The road of fascism we are heading down is directly a result of people limply throwing pissing their vote into the wind.

I'm proud I did not consent to Trump or Clinton in 2016, you did. Green have a chance because Dems and Republicans are terrible. You're just a scared, disenfranchised little child that can't make your own decisions. I am responsible for improving my government, which is why I'm building a better option in the Green party. You do nothing but whine and submit to fascism, pathetic.

LengAwaits ,
@LengAwaits@lemmy.world avatar

Belittling people is rarely a good dialectical tactic, and speaks to your own level of maturity. If this is the type of discourse employed by green party supporters and campaign volunteers, I'll be staying away.

Based on what I've seen of your post history here, you're a combative ideologue who's not interested in building anything other than ill-will, with seemingly zero desire to talk about anything that doesn't give you an opportunity to aggressively proselytize. You seem to turn every conversation you have into an abrasive display of your moral superiority, repeating the same talking points ad nauseum while abandoning any points that shift out of your favor.

Perhaps you hope that you can activate non-voters with your accusatory, venomous, divisive rhetoric, but I struggle to see how that strategy will be beneficial should a Green candidate make it to the Presidency. Coalition building with the Democratic party will absolutely be necessary to get Green legislation through congress early on; It seems short-sighted to belittle and alienate those who vote closest to your interests on the political spectrum by equating them with those who vote furthest from your interests. Ideals are important, but game theory underpins all political action and must be considered.

Further, RCV does not require the Green party to be implemented. Many states have been experimenting with RCV (and other alternative voting systems) without leadership from the Green party (source). That trend has been picking up steam across the nation.

goldenlocks ,

Belittling people is rarely a good dialectical tactic, and speaks to your own level of maturity.

Only in response to their claims, I am not "belittling" them, they made those statements themselves that they consent to "corporate facism", I do not.

If this is the type of discourse employed by green party supporters and campaign volunteers, I’ll be staying away.

That's fine, I'm targeting non-voters.

Based on what I’ve seen of your post history here, you’re a combative ideologue who’s not interested in building anything other than ill-will, with seemingly zero desire to talk about anything that doesn’t give you an opportunity to aggressively proselytize.

That is necessary considering how heavy handed pro-capitalist propaganda is. What would you like to discuss?

You seem to turn every conversation you have into an abrasive display of your moral superiority, repeating the same talking points ad nauseum while abandoning any points that shift out of your favor.

The truth is hard to accept, and I am not ashamed of being against fascist corporate control of our economy, regardless of how hard you try to make me conceed that. Now provide an example of me abandoing any point that has been "out of my favor".

Perhaps you hope that you can activate non-voters with your accusatory, venomous, divisive rhetoric, but I struggle to see how that strategy will be beneficial should a Green candidate make it to the Presidency.

https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2023/07/12/voter-turnout-2018-2022/ There is plenty, in fact it is often a majority.

Coalition building with the Democratic party will absolutely be necessary to get Green legislation through congress early on; It seems short-sighted to belittle and alienate those who vote closest to your interests on the political spectrum by equating them with those who vote furthest from your interests. Ideals are important, but game theory underpins all political action and must be considered.

The Democratic party will not be there to offer a coalition. They spend millions trying to prevent Greens from even being on the ballot. Your "game theory" is wrong considering you used nonfactual inputs. The only path towards progress is rejecting all pro-capitalist actors, which will more than make up for it with support from the poor working class.

Further, RCV does not require the Green party to be implemented. Many states have been experimenting with RCV (and other alternative voting systems) without leadership from the Green party (source). That trend has been picking up steam across the nation.

Gaslighting at it finest, I never claimed the Green party was necessary for RCV to be implemented, only the Democrats will fight against it since it hurts their chances against third parties. The trend has been by ballot initiatives, not Democratic legislation.

LengAwaits , (edited )
@LengAwaits@lemmy.world avatar

👍

Let's discuss this:
https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/43a44e6e-e649-48f5-8f2e-7fa2e2a2ed65.jpeg

goldenlocks ,

What of it? They asked for an elephant in a closet

Olgratin_Magmatoe ,

Only in response to their claims, I am not “belittling” them, they made those statements themselves that they consent to “corporate facism”, I do not.

You straight up called me a dumbass because I disagreed with you.

Yeah, get the fuck out of here. /u/LengAwaits is right, if this is what the green party stands for, fuck off.

goldenlocks ,

You straight up called me a dumbass because I disagreed with you.

You said that yourself.

Yeah, get the fuck out of here. /u/LengAwaits is right, if this is what the green party stands for, fuck off.

Don't want your help, targeting non voters not brainwashed liberals.

Olgratin_Magmatoe ,

You said that yourself.

Go gaslight someone else.

https://lemmy.world/comment/9837122

goldenlocks ,

I’d rather live in the current corporate run dystopia than an outright fascist version called Gilead.

This you? You did say it yourself.

goldenlocks ,

I’d rather keep my right to vote, which is under threat thanks to the likes of Trump.

Why didn't Trump use these magical powers he supposedly has to take away our right to vote?

Not seeing anything you’ve built. All I see is you complaining about Biden and Trump.

https://www.gp.org/ Where is yours? What have you done to oppose the rich controlling our government? You consent to it.

If you want better, we need electoral reform. Our current system is mathematically biased against third parties.

Yes, that's why I vote for candidates that support ranked choice voting.

You vote for candidates that oppose ranked choice voting.

See how you have no solutions here?

Olgratin_Magmatoe ,

Why didn’t Trump use these magical powers he supposedly has to take away our right to vote?

Because it took them time to rig the SCOTUS.

https://www.gp.org/ Where is yours?

Yeah, a party that has won exactly zero presidential elections what a party you've built. How proud you must be.

What have you done to oppose the rich controlling our government? You consent to it.

A man abducts you and gives you to choices:

  • Have sex with him "willingly"

  • He kills you, and has sex with your corpse

Choosing the first option in no way is consensual.

Yes, that’s why I vote for candidates that support ranked choice voting.

Good for you.

You vote for candidates that oppose ranked choice voting.

Factually incorrect.

goldenlocks ,

Because it took them time to rig the SCOTUS.

Exactly what law do you expect them to pass? This is all Dems fault for being so garbage that Republicans even have a chance.

Yeah, a party that has won exactly zero presidential elections what a party you’ve built. How proud you must be.

You have to vote for them to win dumbass.

A man abducts you and gives you to choices:
Have sex with him “willingly”
He kills you, and has sex with your corpse
Choosing the first option in no way is consensual.

You are truly deranged. In this comparison you could choose neither and vote green party.

Factually incorrect.

Biden supports RCV? Which Dem?

Olgratin_Magmatoe , (edited )

Exactly what law do you expect them to pass? This is all Dems fault for being so garbage that Republicans even have a chance.

They are openly debating if the president can have political opponents killed. Quit living under a rock.

You have to vote for them to win dumbass

No shit.

But I am not an imbecile who thinks they can magic away the spoiler effect. That's you.

You are truly deranged. In this comparison you could choose neither and vote green party.

Voting third party is equal to choosing the second option.

Biden supports RCV? Which Dem?

Get a grip. You've done no better to get RCV implemented. Your votes get you nothing, because you vote for candidates that mathematically cannot win thanks to the inherent biases of FPTP voting.

And RCV isn't even that good of an option. STAR and approval are superior.

goldenlocks , (edited )

They are openly debating if the president can have political opponents killed. Quit living under a rock.

Hilarious. The rich have you figured out and are playing you like a fiddle.

No shit.

But I am not an imbecile who thinks they can magic away the spoiler effect. That’s you.

The literal only way is voting, it's so simple it's hilarious.

Voting third party is equal to choosing the second option.

Nope.

Get a grip. You’ve done no better to get RCV implemented. Your votes get you nothing, because you vote for candidates that mathematically cannot win thanks to the inherent biases of FPTP voting.

LOL so people who had power and proved to you they will do nothing to get RCV passed. Greens can mathematically win, you just vote for them.

And RCV isn’t even that good of an option. STAR and approval are superior.

Yes the Dems will surely do this for you LOL

ty to make a sensible sentence.

Olgratin_Magmatoe ,

Hilarious. The rich how you figured out and are playing you like a fiddle.

Have you passed the fifth grade? I honestly can't tell given your inability to make a sensible sentence.

The literal only way is voting, it’s so simple it’s hilarious.

Voting isn't magic, stop treating it like so.

Nope.

It objectively is:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoiler_effect

https://fairvote.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/Blog-Image-Template-New.png

Greens can mathematically win, you just vote for them.

No they cannot. The spoiler effect is an inherent problem to our electoral system. You cannot just magic away systemic problems.

goldenlocks ,

The rich have you figured out and are playing you like a fiddle.

What do you not understand here?

Voting isn’t magic, stop treating it like so.

It's incredibly simple. You do not understand even the basic definition of democracy.

It objectively is:

Not if you vote for them and gather support instead of whining like a baby.

No they cannot. The spoiler effect is an inherent problem to our electoral system. You cannot just magic away systemic problems.

Then change it, get over yourself. I am helping fix this problem by voting against it, you are not, very simple.

Lightsong ,

People should do that... After this election that is.

goldenlocks ,

Hilarious. Where have liberals been after 2016? 2020? The time is now, and you are trying your best to maintain the control of our government by the rich.

Lightsong ,

And risk Trump presidency? No thanks.

goldenlocks ,

You in 2028 after doing nothing for 4 years: "And risk (insert Republican here) presidency? No thanks."

While the country goes to shit.

InvaderDJ ,

The very idea is absurd. It is so counter productive to the idea of rehabilitation. The prisons themselves say they aren't a significant revenue stream. Trying to offset the cost of a societal need by charging fees to prisons doesn't even make any sense. And the companies that are tasked with collecting this debt get 70% of what they collect which means that even the argument about offsetting the state's cost doesn't make sense.

It's profit seeking, counter productive cruelty and that's it. Just shameful.

elephantium ,
@elephantium@lemmy.world avatar

Trying to offset the cost of a societal need by charging fees to prisons (sic) doesn’t even make any sense.

Sure it does. It costs $$$ to build jails and prisons and more $$$ to run them. Why should I, the victim, have to pay twice? (once for my car, which the thief stole, and again in my taxes to fund the legal system once the thief is caught)

I can very much entertain an argument like that (counter-argument, pay prisoners minimum wage for whatever work they do and charge the $20/day from that).

But that's not what's going on here.

This is about a collection agency figuring out how to profit from a captive audience. It deserves the same regard from us as prison phone operators do.

It's really just another form of predatory bullshit.

The prisons themselves say they aren’t a significant revenue stream

This is crucial here, IMO. We could put whatever we want on the bills -- hell, we could charge a million dollar fee for each sentence! That would fix the funding problems -- but the simple truth is that most of the prisoners don't have the money.

orrk ,

the overwhelming majority of inmates are non-violent offenders, often times in prison for the heinous crime of: smoking weed, or some other petty crime

elephantium ,
@elephantium@lemmy.world avatar

Okay? I don't understand what point you might be trying to make with this statement, even if it were true.

But the actual figure is 45% for drug offenses. That is the single biggest category, but I find it disingenuous to characterize "less than half" as "overwhelming majority".

orrk ,

so, here is the fun bit about statistics, when you have more than say, 3-4 different options the thing with almost half generally is an overwhelming majority

elephantium ,
@elephantium@lemmy.world avatar

No, it's incredibly misleading. When you said that, I expected to find something like 80% of prisoners are there because of drugs. Instead, I find that it's less than half.

orrk ,

it's not misleading at all? half is a REALLY large amount. like i get that this is an issue of humans not having math brains, but imagine if you will:

a bag with 20 marbles, 10 blue, 3yellow, 2red, 2pink, 1green, 1black, and 1 clear.

Bjornir ,

If the issue was cost, you would build schools. A better educated population get less sick, earns more and thus pays more taxes, commit way less crimes, get less social welfare, in short it is a net gain in tax dollars.

Plus, someone who gets out of jail with a big debt will very likely cost way more to society than what could ever be recovered from them.

blahsay ,

In Oz you get paid a small amount per day so you have some adjustment money when you get out

Varyk OP ,

Oz is better.

Is the far right movement down there getting as bad as it is presented, or is that just the only thing newspapers talk about besides the wildfires?

rowinxavier ,

Nah, we have what we call casual racism, but the real far right intense stuff is a vocal minority. I live in regional NSW and we have a growing immigrant population, largely from Asia and Africa. The colour difference between what was here 5 years ago and now is there if you care to look but honestly it is just people being people for the most part, nobody really seems to care. That said, our billionaires are a major issue and government capture seems inevitably unless major reform goes through.

Varyk OP ,

Best of luck.

I was in and around Melbourne for a few months, and everyone I met seemed very cool, just people being people, so that's good to hear.

Except, what shocked me over and over again as I traveled, was I always met someone who loved Trump.

Like I was staying with this hippie outside melbourne couchsurfing and he started talking about Trump and Q, and I had no idea what he was talking about at that point, and after I found out what conspiracy theories q was putting forth. I was so confused as to how this hippie wholeheartedly believed in things like pizzagate or the like.

ICastFist ,
@ICastFist@programming.dev avatar

I was so confused as to how this hippie wholeheartedly believed in things like pizzagate or the like.

Too much snoop smoke while browsing 4chan is my guess

rowinxavier ,

I had a psychiatrist for my ADHD who went off the deep end on Q and Trump. It is entirely possible to get a high end degree without critical thinking skills, so seeing someone with at least 10 years of university, medical school, and specialisation in psychiatry going off the deep end is not impossible, just a bit odd to process.

That said, I think Australians tend to be a little more up front than North Americans, so when someone seems to just spew whatever they are thinking they seem more familiar. That said, someone spewing garbage should not be seen as normal but here we find ourselves I guess.

phoneymouse ,

Just to really fuck up your life when you get out

Ephera ,

In particular, to force you back into crime, to be able to pay for that debt.

metaStatic ,

just declare bankruptcy

aodhsishaj ,

Absolutely, I mean I'm already a felon, what's one more barrier to credit and gainful employment?

Trollception ,

Bankruptcy isn't a bad option if you don't have any credit or have bad credit already. You can turn things around in a couple of months. Also I am unaware of employers performing a credit check as a basis for employment.

poprocks ,

Depends on the company. Background checks can include credit checks. Any job with money or security clearance will check credit and large employers sometimes do as well.

Emma_Gold_Man ,

Common in IT roles as well.

Codilingus ,

Blows my mind, credit has nothing to do with IT skills?!

Emma_Gold_Man ,

IT has a level of access to systems that makes management nervous. The fear is that an IT person in financial trouble could use that to embezzle, or be pressured to sell access to a malicious third party.

olav ,
@olav@theweird.space avatar

@Trollception @aodhsishaj they do if there's a gov't clearance or you're touching corp money involved. But in most cases they'll let you explain what happened.

aodhsishaj ,

You've chosen your username well.

https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/finance/credit-score-employer-checking

Felonies also don't help with getting a job.
https://www.prisonpolicy.org/blog/2022/02/08/employment/

Bankruptcy, without a lawyer is not just a couple months.
https://www.forbes.com/advisor/credit-score/bankruptcy-on-credit-report/

Also another place where credit can affect your chances is housing
https://www.businessinsider.com/personal-finance/credit-score-needed-to-rent-apartment?op=1

And when it's that bad you can just move into a relatives house right?
https://www.repository.law.indiana.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=11290&context=ilj

acockworkorange ,

Wait, are you unironically advocating for people not to declare bankruptcy after leaving prison with crippling debt?

aodhsishaj ,

I'm saying it shouldn't be necessary in the first place. You're supposed to have paid your debt to society by being in there. Federal amd state tax money pay for you to be there, charging room and board is predatory.

Just declare bankruptcy bro! Is a very tone deaf response to what is essentially bonded labor.

acockworkorange ,

I'm saying it shouldn't be necessary in the first place.

Well no shit. Nobody’s defending this. Dude’s proposing something to help while legislation is in this shit state.

Just declare bankruptcy bro! Is a very tone deaf response to what is essentially bonded labor.

You need to get out of your own head if you think that was a response. No one’s out to get you.

Trainguyrom ,

I interned at a bank and they do a credit check as a standard step for hiring someone. I also overheard HR at that bank talking about how they should stop running credit checks before hiring people because they can't use the info from that for anything and it just costs money to run the credit check

olav ,
@olav@theweird.space avatar

@aodhsishaj @metaStatic bankruptcy is by far not the worse thing you can do. Often trying to unbury yourself will take longer to get back to solvency.

We had to medical B out. Get cancer these days, particularly with a $6K+ deductible for a PPO and you're toast. We managed to switch to a HMO before surgery and we were still toast. And I had a Good Job.

File, get a pre-paid card then some high-interest you barely use, then some "normal" credit and it builds faster than you know

olav ,
@olav@theweird.space avatar

@aodhsishaj @metaStatic

If you think bankruptcy is bad, look at all the rich people and corps that do it as often as possible

Edit: I mean Herr Trumptard has filed no less than six times to avoid paying people

ICastFist ,
@ICastFist@programming.dev avatar

Rich people never pay what they owe, especially if they owe it to the gov't. Unlike poor people, the police doesn't knock on their door to get the money.

Daft_ish ,

This golden oldie, "all hail the job creators, creators of all jobs."

jkrtn ,

Did Donald file for personal bankruptcy or did a Donald business file for bankruptcy? It might be like stealing: legal and cool if you are a corporation and the victims are poors.

Audacious ,

Corporations have more rights than the people, and rich people hide behind their companies. So, without looking it up, I'm guessing trump business.

aodhsishaj ,

Bankruptcy without a lawyer, a permanent address and transportation to the courts is a serious hurdle. People rotating out of prison are already at a disadvantage. My point is they shouldn't be in debt when they leave prison in the first place. The whole point is that they paid their debt to society.

This isn't, oh shit I'm in over my head in a cornerstore, restaurant, family warehouse, what have you. It's very tone-deaf to not address the elephant in the room of these people entering society at a grave disadvantage.

The services below should not be necessary for every person incarcerated by the state. The system is broken.

https://legalbeagle.com/5666136-file-bankruptcy-prison.html

https://library.nclc.org/article/bankruptcys-role-alleviating-criminal-justice-debt-0

HawlSera ,

Debtor's Prison is illegal... happens anyway

b3an ,
@b3an@lemmy.world avatar

So felons can do that, but students can’t with crushing loans. Cool

metaStatic ,

cool and normal

Sir_Kevin ,
@Sir_Kevin@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

I wish i knew why you were being downvoted but nobody offered a counter point. Bankrupcy seems like a logical solution for this situation.

metaStatic ,

I hope kbin never federates downvotes because I couldn't care less

but it's probably people who got scammed with student loans they can't discharge with bankruptcy.

umbrella ,
@umbrella@lemmy.ml avatar

great solution

sebinspace ,

The system is working as intended

halferect ,

Believe it or not if you can't pay.. straight to jail

Varyk OP ,

And then if you can't pay after you get out, they'll sue you. I can't find evidence that you'll go back to jail, but I'm sure it's happened.

halferect ,

https://youtu.be/eiyfwZVAzGw?si=7ziuV57fXMCOwfz8

unreasonabro ,

it's sad and conspicuous that all of the reasons you hear about these days that would actually justify going out and killing terrible people mostly all involve things the American government has done or permitted. Truly the driving force for evil in the world.

Varyk OP ,

They're barely a 200-year-old country; relevant for roughly 80 of those years, the states are not the ultimate driving force of anything, and certainly not a vague concept like evil.

This specific issue is a failing on part of its citizenry, in company of many failings, but the country is not a static moment in time defined by its failings.

JustZ ,
@JustZ@lemmy.world avatar

Back on my day prison was a nickle and we liked it.

elephantium ,
@elephantium@lemmy.world avatar

But the important thing was to tie an onion on your belt, as it was the style at the time.

elephantium ,
@elephantium@lemmy.world avatar

I read the wiki page. Pretty barebones, but it did link to https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-34705968

In theory, I could entertain an argument about having criminals repay some of the costs of dealing with them, that's not what's going on here.

The sum that is able to be collected doesn't go straight into the county coffers, either - the jail contracts with a company

The jail gets 30%, the company gets 70%.

It really just looks like just another way to exploit prisoners for profit.

Varyk OP ,

Yeah, that's what the Rutgers article at the bottom of my post was for, more context.

There is no doubt that the prisons are using pay for stay as an excuse to hoover up more money from the most vulnerable populations.

can ,

The US is starting to sound made up

aeronmelon ,

I left America over a decade ago due to a laundry list of grievances that I developed while having only ever lived in America.

Once I started living in other countries, I finally developed context to compare my American life with. And it just made things look so much worse than I had previously thought.

And now it feels like not a day can go by without learning some new awful truth about my former home.

SaintWacko ,

Where did you go, if you don't mind me asking? It's certainly something we've talked about...

aeronmelon , (edited )

I hopped around Southeast Asia until I landed in Japan.

It's not easy here, and it's not without its own problems, but it works much better for me.

(I'd probably still be in Singapore were it not for the heat. The food is 10/10 and dirt cheap, but I missed seasons.)

(I knew that answering this question would make the jerks upset somehow.)

Codilingus ,

Do you have to struggle with the insane only work, no life, salary man/woman problems? Or did you find something that doesn't follow that "life style?"

aeronmelon ,

No, I see it but I don't have to deal with it.

It's also not as much of a constant as it used to be.

Lucidlethargy ,
@Lucidlethargy@sh.itjust.works avatar

It's unfortunate you left... When good people leave, we're stuck with more of the bad gaining power.

If we lose this country to the bad people even more than it's already been lost, then the entire world may pay dearly as a result.

nilloc ,

If he left a solid red or blue state, it doesn’t really matter. Our minority representation, first pst the pole voting and electoral college means that a lot of smart people from cities or solid blue areas can leave and nothing will change.

Plus OP’s an outlier, most of us can’t afford to relocate like this.

Varyk OP ,

It was. Everywhere was.

can ,

Yes, but the more I live and hear things about the states it starts to sound like satire or as if it's a joke to see what other people will believe.

Varyk OP ,

You're just getting older, haha. The longer we live, the more we can't help seeing what's right in front of us.

can ,

If only that were true for everyone.

Raffster ,

Nah, it's exactly the other way around. Except for a tiny minority. All the others have to ignore what's around them in order to not go insane.

Varyk OP ,

I can understand why it seems that way, but the broad American public supports civil and labor liberties, green energy, healthy and equitable policies in general; it's the vocal minority that is subverting the will of the more fair-minded, rational and compassionate majority(sure would be nice if more than one out of every three or four people voted).

And I don't even think most conservatives believe in the policies they support so much as they don't comprehend what they're supporting and they are afraid of relinquishing control over what they narrowly perceive as "power" and "freedom".

The ones I've talked to don't.

Codilingus ,

I feel like most of them only vote R because they're getting bamboozled into believing that the Rs stand for conservative, Christian, family values.

Varyk OP , (edited )

Anecdotally, ignorance and fear seems to be significant factors supporting conservative beliefs.

When I tell a liberal something that they aren't expecting or that they didn't know, they'll respond with "what? How do you know that? Really?"

Then with a conservative, I usually get "No, no. Really? Well, I don't know about that, anyway..."

And that'll be some hard truth or contradicting statistic that the conservative doesn't want to address or learn about because it will fly in the face of a fear or ignorance based belief.

can ,

This is probably not the point you intended, but I basically read that as Conservatives are against growth, personal or otherwise.

Which is just sad. That sounds like an unrewarding life. I doubt they want my pity but they kind of already have it when I look past the hatred and think about how they've been swindled.

Varyk OP ,

Yep, that's a part of what I meant.

FlashMobOfOne ,
@FlashMobOfOne@lemmy.world avatar

I'd like to believe that. Social Media did a great job of reprogramming people.

Varyk OP ,

Media did a great job before that, and humans tend to get conservative as they age, so I think there's a lot of factors working together to make people more cynical than they ought to be.

6mementomori ,

isn't every country made up after all?

can ,

But this has begun sounding like made up details, like someone heard how we feel and they decided to play into those concerns to see how much we'd believe before calling them out.

BruceTwarzen ,

I honeatly think that a lot.

gravitas_deficiency ,

It’s called the American Dream because you’ve got to be asleep to believe it

Mango ,

It's real and I'm here. Pls save me.

can ,

I'd love to invite you up north but we need to get some housing first.

Mango ,

We all have housing. It's just a matter of prying the leeches off first.

can ,

As long as the leeches are still there then we really don't.

Mango ,

Got any salt?

can ,

The finest.

Mango ,

WTB 1 salt. 5k /wave2 /glow:green

nucleative ,

Might be somewhat acceptable if a job was available while in prison to support these living expenses. That at least might improve confidence and start the rehabilitation process.

Oh wait, who am I kidding. Prison has nothing to do with rehabilitation.

Varyk OP ,

Not in the states. US prisons are exploitative first and punitive second.

Traegert ,

There are, but the jobs available pay like $1 or 2 a day

luciferofastora ,

So glad slavery got abolished*!

*terms and conditions apply

FreakinSteve ,

This is what conservatives wanted.
This is what Democrats wanted.
This is what capitalists wanted.
America is a fucking authoritarian shithole. It has no concept at all what freedom is, and never has. All of that "freedom" shit is a bald faced fucking lie.

And now some asshole raised in some Appalachian shithole is gonna stomp in here and try to tell everyone that America is great because he served in Afghanistan and if you hate America move

ADTJ ,

You think this is bad, we recently had a high profile case in the UK finally overturn a law where people who were found to have been wrongfully imprisoned had fees deducted from their compensation to pay the prison service for their food and accommodation.

Imagine spending years of your life in prison on a false conviction and then finding out you have to pay the government for the privilege.

FreakinSteve ,

I am not surprised, as the UK is who taught the world the concept of ownership and financial enslavement. The US is the eager scion of such pedigree

funkless_eck ,

hey, the uk has taught the world other things too

like how to make concentration camps

Olgratin_Magmatoe ,

Don't forget, the U.S. has had some fun lessons to teach others. Like there was that time when the U.S. taught Germany how to make gas chambers and use them on "lower races".

hOmE oF ThE fReE

Resol ,
@Resol@lemmy.world avatar

How to absolutely destroy your net worth:

Step 1: go to prison

There is no step 2.

Cypher19 ,

How is this not considered cruel or unusual punishment?

JohnDClay ,

Because it's common not unusual?

LemmyKnowsBest ,

It's cruel but it's not unusual.

LemmyFeed ,

🎵 it's not unusual.... 🎵

LemmyKnowsBest ,

... 🎵 to be loved by anyone 🎵

samus12345 ,
@samus12345@lemmy.world avatar

I just heard about that for the first time a few days ago, and I couldn't believe it was real. As horrible as I think the United States of Ferenginar is, they always manage to surprise me and be worse.

HawlSera , (edited )

I have to keep asking people not to compare American Capitalists to the Ferengi

The Ferengi have a rule book dictating the ways they are and aren't allowed to rip you off, American Capitalists would call that level of honesty and integrity Far-Left Socialism

samus12345 ,
@samus12345@lemmy.world avatar

The Ferengi are also perfectly happy to break any and all of the rules if it means more profit - that's probably one of the rules.

knife ,

There's nothing more dangerous than an honest business man.

samus12345 ,
@samus12345@lemmy.world avatar

Does being honest about being dishonest count? Probably.

Wogi ,

Most of the rules have a counter, opposite rule. IE, war is good for business, peace is good for business.

samus12345 ,
@samus12345@lemmy.world avatar

I think they're "War is profitable" and "Peace is profitable". Which I guess isn't really contradictory. They're profitable in different ways.

Wogi ,

It's literally "good for business" on both

samus12345 ,
@samus12345@lemmy.world avatar

You're right. Still the same thing, good for business in different ways.

state_electrician ,

This is some serious "keep hitting yourself" material. It's not like you can decide to not be incarcerated. $7300-$29200 of debt per year spent in prison. Man, that is some vicious shit. Nobody will be able to convince me that this is not specifically designed to keep people down forever.

Diplomjodler3 ,

Nobody will convince me that two plus two isn't four.

Daqu ,

If the twos are very small, it might be a heavy three.

Varyk OP ,

Exactly. Recidivism makes a lot more sense now.

Imagine if you had $30,000 of debt right after you get out of jail with zero contacts and social support.

Yeah of course you're going to go back to what you were doing before, you have no other options that you're aware of.

Fuck that system.

Hobbes ,

You also have a record which makes getting hired even more difficult.

captainlezbian ,

“Here’s the opposite of a college degree for the same price”

Ragnarok314159 ,

A lot of the education programs in prison are equally vile. They have people learn a few skills or trades, then when they get out they learn it’s impossible to get a state license in that trade because they are felons.

captainlezbian ,

My wife knows a guy who learned programming in prison. He was apparently extremely lucky in which one he was sent to. And I don’t mean like “was fortunate for how he was charged” no he got sent to the most recent “prison reform” prison. They never close or update the old ones, just use prison reform as a justification to build a new one.

HawlSera ,

It's not rehabilitation, it's slavery with extra steps

The amendment banning slavery says you can still enslave people if it's to punish them for a crime

Prisons are largely privatized nowadays, creating a demand for prisoners as they profit off of the free labor they get from prisoners

Rehabilitation efforts in the modern penal system are largely non-existent, with people usually coming out more violent and criminal than they came in, even if it was a bullshit arrest.

Black people are incarcerated at higher rates and with harsher sentences than white people for the same crimes, they also tend to get found guilty on much weaker evidence than their white peers

If you think it's a coincidence, I can't help you

Varyk OP ,

Were you responding to me specifically or just sharing this information in general?

HawlSera ,

I am talking to you, I'm just saying the system wasn't designed this way out of stupidity, but malice.

Varyk OP , (edited )

Got it.

dgmib ,

And it’s never going to change either. No politician would ever campaign on a platform of prison reform, few would even vote in favor of it. Imagine the attack ads “Jeff Jackson wants to let murders and rapists go free and work at your kid’s school. Jack Jefferson protects kids and is tough on criminals voting three time to ensure growth of his investments in PrisonMegaCorp make sure they rot in prison forever… I’m Jack Jefferson and I approve this message.”

Varyk OP ,

Prison reform can happen in the United States, and it can be used as a platform by Earnest politicians like Bernie Sanders or AOC.

Prison abuse and reform happened in other countries, and there isn't any evidence for inherent American exceptionalism

People are people, so positive prison reforms can happen in the States too.

redcalcium ,

It would be nice if the prisoners could take class or earn a degree while in prison, at least when they get out they have a new skill or a degree so they have a better chance to get a job to pay off their prison debt.

statist43 ,

This is a standart in German prisons.

Daqu ,

Do all the politicians sleep in prison?

statist43 ,

What do you mean? I was talking about having education in prison.

datelmd5sum ,

In Finland low risk prisoners can even get (or keep) a job. They drive a loaner car from the prison to their job in the morning and then drive back to prison in the afternoon.

captainlezbian ,

Oh here in America they have to hold a job. If they work really hard they may even make a few dollars a day

HawlSera ,

It's actual the one instance where slavery is legal, and most prisoners are black because of obvious racial bias in the court system.... I wonder if that's a concidence....

Ragnarok314159 ,

It all goes to the company store.

captainlezbian ,

Well after they’re done shaking down your loved ones too. It’s ok together you can all theoretically scrape together enough to keep you fed

HawlSera , (edited )

As someone who's lived in the US her life everytime I hear about other first world nations it sounds so idyllic that if you put it in a Utopian Future Sci-Fi novel I'd laugh and call it hopelessly optimistic and just incredibly naive about how humans work....

But... no... people outside of America actually live like this...

This is not a cry for help (It totally is, I hate it here)

But for real though, if America wasn't a world power (at the expense of its citizens' well-being) or if there were other world powers strong as or stronger than it that weren't Russia or China, I would not be even slightly surprised if it offered amnesty to US Citizens fleeing Late Stage Capitalism, at this point it'd be morally justified...

The UN actually did surveys here and found that Americans (especially in rural areas) experience levels of poverty that said UN believed to only exist in the worst case scenarios of 3rd World Countries. The problem is THAT bad...

God I hope there's an afterlife, that may be the only way any of us see true freedom... escaping reality itself.

TexMexBazooka ,

They can

RememberTheApollo_ ,

Not always.

Regardless of the fact that prison education is clearly beneficial for the prison population and wider society, many prison education programs experienced significant budget cuts. States with large prison populations had cut prison education funding by 10%, on average. On top of this, further research has shownthat states with medium-sized populations slashed education budgets by an average of 20%.

The introduction of the Second Chance Pell Experimental Sites Initiative helped fund additional programs in 2016, although access to postsecondary education in prisons remained limited because the scheme served a maximum of 12,000 prisoners annually. Since, the program has enrolled 22,000 participantsand 130 colleges in the scheme, although only 7,000 individuals have earned credentials. Due to this, many of the 2.1 million people who are currently incarcerated in the U.S. are denied access to education.

However:

To find out how people who have been in prison feel about this situation, we conducted a survey of 100 people who have recently been incarcerated. Surprisingly, they told us that they were generally happy with the education opportunities presented to them. Overall, 74% of our respondents told us that they disagreed with the statement “I had no access to educational programs/education whilst incarcerated.”

As well as being offered an education, many of our respondents told us that they were actively encouraged to take part in these programs. More than 60% of respondents disagreed with the statement “I was not encouraged to participate in educational programs whilst incarcerated.”

So access to education seems to be one of those things that is at least partially lip service. Education might be offered, it also might be substandard compared to a regular school. However, if it is offered and decent, inmates who have participated in getting a GED or better education state that it did help with avoiding recidivism and having better mental health.

https://www.degreechoices.com/blog/prison-education-usa/

morriscox ,

A survey of 100 people out of 10s of thousands is useless.

RememberTheApollo_ ,

Ok. Glad you weighed in with your expertise. This may not be the exhaustive survey that would offer incontrovertible proof, but it’s what we’ve got. Care to offer anything to the contrary other than an opinion?

morriscox ,

You can cherry-pick anything if you have 22K people to pick from and only need 100. We don't how and at which point the question was asked. We don't know the selection process. All we know is that they got 100 people to say something. It shouldn't matter if we agree with the findings.

RememberTheApollo_ ,

Ok. So you’re attacking the source, not the argument, while absolving yourself of any effort to contribute to the discussion. Well done.

morriscox ,

Seriously? You seem to only care that the survey results show what you want them to show. Apparently it doesn't matter how shoddy the survey was done, as long as it says what you want it to say, you're okay with that and will attack anyone who points out that it's flawed. This is Anthony Wakefield territory.

RememberTheApollo_ , (edited )

No, but thanks for telling me what I’m thinking. I provided some evidence. You complain that it doesn’t meet your arbitrary standard. I call you out and ask you to provide information that contradicts the study. IDGAF, I don’t have a dog in this fight whether the study contains valid data or not, but if you’re going to call “bullshit”, provide contrary data. If all you want to do is complain about the study, there’s the door. I’m here to have a conversation about education in prisons, not your opinion on the study.

AquaTofana ,

Omg I can hear my parents now:

"Wait, I had to work and save and still not be able to afford an education?!?! I sHoUlD hAvE jUsT hElD uP a CoNvEnIeNcE sToRe."

I agree with you, 100%, FWIW. I'm just imagining the asinine conversations we're going to have to have with people who don't understand that the world doesn't revolve around them and they're not the main character.

havokdj ,

You can, just not a degree specifically but you can get certifications and a ged in prison

Ragnarok314159 ,

I commented this elsewhere, but a lot of those certifications are not worth anything because if you are a felon you cannot get that state license.

havokdj ,

You absolutely can still use those certifications and they are often the stepping stone to help you get your foot in the door in an industry. I used to work IT in corrections and while not everyone winds up making it, I've seen felons go on to make $40/hr doing welding.

I do not agree with the US when it comes to corrections at all and I think it is blatantly abused in order to incarcerate as many people as possible, but I will give credit where it is due, not ALL hope is lost if you get incarcerated

Ragnarok314159 ,

You can use some of them, but there are a few like a barber’s license (in some states) that cannot be used.

People spend their time thinking they are reinventing themselves in prison only to find out they cannot work in said field/trade.

HawlSera ,

That would happen if Rehabilitation was the goal, that is not the point of the private prison system, the point is to legalize slavery.

root ,

"It's not like you can decide to not be incarcerated"

You can though..

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