KeenFlame ,

I have voted PP since their conception, and I think we have them to thank for a lot. Will continue to do so, probably forever. I don't understand how these issues don't get more attention these days. Tech related privacy, anti monopoly, ai safety etc is just a part but they have excellent values in other areas as well.

Takios ,
@Takios@discuss.tchncs.de avatar

I was thinking the whole week if I should vote the greens or the pirates but due to the recurring campaigns to establish a surveillance state I did end up voting pirates. Incredibly disheartened they didn't get a seat :(

mal3oon ,

What did the pirate party stand for? I heard of them before, but not much what they stand for other than digital privacy.

I think this election was mainly focused on Migration, economy and green deal. Mainly why the right took over and the green and left lost. People are seeing the negative effect of migration more and more, and diplomats cannot hide it anymore.

Mubelotix , (edited )
@Mubelotix@jlai.lu avatar

Democracy. Real direct democracy, not the representative bullshit. But with the little influence we got, we can't do much better than trying to protect digital privacy right now

AFC1886VCC ,

Outside of their obvious platform, pirate parties tend to be social democratic, like centre-centre left AFAIK. With more of an emphasis on direct democracy and anti-authoritarianism than bigger mainstream parties.

Mangoholic ,

There are more parties who defend internet privacy then just the pirate party.
Won't matter much tho with the current rightwing majority.

UnderpantsWeevil ,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

Is the incoming majority particularly anti-piracy? I thought they were more fixated on leaving the EU, gutting the "woke" public sector, and rounding up all the immigrants for deportation.

Mubelotix ,
@Mubelotix@jlai.lu avatar

Just to make things clear, the pirate party isn't directly related to piracy. There are ongoing efforts to render end-to-end encryption illegal in Europe as we speak. Dark times are coming

UnderpantsWeevil ,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

There are ongoing efforts to render end-to-end encryption illegal in Europe as we speak.

I can't imagine how you stop all end to end encryption across a continent while you're exiting the continent-wide governing body.

Mubelotix ,
@Mubelotix@jlai.lu avatar

Who's exiting? They will just ban any non-compliant messaging app

UnderpantsWeevil ,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

They whom? Is every country going to have it's own national firewall, complete with highly sophisticated SMS-only encryption detecting service?

yetAnotherUser ,

The EU plans to do so and as such every member must follow it.

And once encryption is criminalized, it can be trivially detected - or at least assumed to be encrypted if your message is sufficiently random.

UnderpantsWeevil ,
@UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world avatar

The EU plans to do so

A bunch of these alt-right parties are anti-EU

devfuuu ,

By law, simply making it illegal as is being worked on.

devfuuu ,

They have been very active fighting the chat control proposals that keep coming, haven't really seen others being so active about it besides them. This is really bad.

Lumisal ,

Last I checked they didn't have the majority though?

fluckx ,

I wish I could actually vote for the pirate party. But I can't here. Didn't show up in the election list. They were 2 or elections ago

ikidd ,
@ikidd@lemmy.world avatar

Sounds like you're the new candidate.

AnUnusualRelic ,
@AnUnusualRelic@lemmy.world avatar

I voted for them. Judging by the numbers, there must have been about three of us.

VeganCheesecake ,
@VeganCheesecake@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

Well, shit, there goes my vote.

Prunebutt ,

Quick reminder that in a liberal democracy, social movements are more important for progressive change than electoralism.

Join a union. Be it trade union, housing union, or whatever (or even any affinity group). And get active.

Complaining about election results achieves nothing, but sow despair.

Leate_Wonceslace ,
@Leate_Wonceslace@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Also: voting is important because it lets you choose your enemy. Progressive liberals and social democrats won't fight against you as hard as conservatives and fascists.

Putting this here because some people might read this and think "Voting doesn't matter."

Prunebutt , (edited )

Voting doesn't really matter, though.

Edit, clarification: at least compared to bottom-up social movements.

vaultdweller013 ,
@vaultdweller013@sh.itjust.works avatar

Looks at US supreme court

Id beg to differ dumbass.

Prunebutt ,

The US supreme court isn't even a democratically legitimized body. Why do you want to take the high road if reactionaries clearly don't care for the rules?

Leate_Wonceslace ,
@Leate_Wonceslace@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Go to your local library and read a book. Any book.

Prunebutt ,

Ok. I've chosen this one

Leate_Wonceslace ,
@Leate_Wonceslace@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

"Hey guys, plowing this field won't feed you, we should just gather."

Prunebutt ,

Nice strawman, homie.

captainlezbian ,

It absolutely does though. You can’t elect worker ownership of the means of production but you sure can elect anything from fascists to social democrats. I for one don’t want fascists to control my government

Prunebutt ,

If progressive policies were ever put into place by an elected body, it was always merely a by-product of already established social consensus formed by bottom-up politics.

captainlezbian ,

I fully agree. But people get better things. Not voting means they don’t. Not voting means the people who want worse things get what they want

Prunebutt ,

With electoralism, people get complacent with watered down reforms and become politically alienated.

someacnt_ ,

But media controls people

klisklas ,

If it doesn't matter, why are so many people afraid when the right wing parties take control? If it's not important why are people so concerned about the supreme Court? Why are women so scared of anti abortion legislation? You vote the legislative and they can simply take the power away from your social movements. So in the end, it does matter.

Prunebutt ,

Voting should not be the main strategy to fight for liberty and progressive change, since the cards in electoralism are way too stacked in favour of the already powerful minority. That's what I meant with "voting is not important".

When Trump lost the last election, MAGA-heads were ready to take up arms against what they considered an injustice. Why aren't progressives ready to do so? How does the "vote blue no matter who" crowd prepare against another Jan 6th situation?

spyd3r ,
@spyd3r@sh.itjust.works avatar

"Progressive" change will only take you further away from liberal democracy and free society.

Prunebutt ,

surpassing liberal democracy is a good thing. I disagree with the free society bit. What definition of "free society" are you referring to?

DandomRude ,
@DandomRude@lemmy.world avatar

I had somewhat hoped that my fellow countrymen in Germany would not fall for the obtuse populism of the right, but that is exactly what has happened.

I'm afraid there's nothing left to counter this, because voters obviously no longer care about rational arguments and don't even want to acknowledge the real problems of our time. They make it easy for themselves and just blame everything on illegal migration or whatever - just as the right-wingers tell them to do.

In this reality characterized by stupidity and false attributions of blame, it is hardly surprising that important but somewhat abstract topics such as data protection are no longer of interest to the masses. It's enough to make you cry.

TheGalacticVoid ,

As an American, it's really sad to see the EU fall into this trap.

DandomRude ,
@DandomRude@lemmy.world avatar

The saddest thing about this is that the Europeans and especially the Germans should really know better. But no, all the lessons from our dark history seem to have been forgotten - or they are simply ignored so that one can once again live in the comfortable world of simple explanations where there is always some minority to blame.

stoy ,

I would gladly vote left, I like social democracy, I don't mind paying taxes for government services, what makes it impossible for me to vote left is that I completely and utterly disagree with the migration policies that have been in place.

They are insane, completely insane.

We need to enforce the EU borders and fundamentally change the asylum process, the current system encourage refugees to take extreme risks by crossing the sea in shit boats, the current system also encourage braindrain from poor countries preventing them from gettng the skilled workers they need to develop their economies.

Restricting the right of asylum will severely cut back on the human trafficing organization's proftis and reduce the ammount of death and injury in a dangerous ocean crossing.

It will also allow us to sped less money supporting people here, and do much more for them in their own home countries.

I am sure I will get downvoted massively, but this is the explanation as to why I won't vote left unless they show that they are serious at cutting migration.

DandomRude ,
@DandomRude@lemmy.world avatar

I don't understand how anyone can think that migration policy is the EU's main problem. And I really don't get why someone should vote for a party that does not share their own convictions because of EU migration policy.

WhatYouNeed ,

Bait and switch.

Immigrants = bad. Just focus on immigrants being bad, while I line my own pockets and/or gather power while you are distracted.

But just remember: immigrants = bad!

EddyBot ,

there is good hint of xenophobia in your comment
you probably need to meet some people foreign of your country and learn they are humans just like you

It will also allow us to sped less money supporting people here, and do much more for them in their own home countries.

tax rich people/companies
these are taking your money away for a good cause for everyone

stoy ,

That is fair, I can see how my comment might seem xenophobic to people who don't know the real me.

I absolutely believe that the rich pay too little tax, it is a global problem, that has a veey simple solution, but extremely difficult execution.

Taxing the rich isn't the be all end all solution, integration is, I am a Swede, and we have absolutely failed with integrating migrants. We see that with migrant gangs in Sweden.

I could write more, but this is not the forum for that discussion.

CybranM ,

Talking like this is exactly why the right is on the rise. As soon as anyone mentions that "hey maybe unlimited migration isn't working" they're immediately labeled as racist and xenophobic.

This alienates a lot of people in the middle that like leftist ideas but don't buy the immigration policies.

Prunebutt ,

Pull effects aren't real. Help eradicating the reasons why the people are fleeing in the first place if you want less refugees.

Not as if the EU would want that, though. There's continents to exploit and money to be made, after all.

stoy ,

I partly agree, which is why I mentioned spending resources more effectively in the countries.

Pull effects are absolutely real, ignoring them is idiotic.

Prunebutt ,

Pull effects have never been empirically shown. You're repeating the right's talking points.

stoy ,

Have they been empirically disproven?

Prunebutt ,

You can't prove a negative.

It's an outdated model and not really taken seriopsly in academia.

stoy ,

Fair point, but that still gives me room to doubt the claim that pull factors have no impact on migration, I must appologize to my overly confidant commwnt earlier in the thread

Prunebutt ,

As I said: the theory of push- and pull-factors is outdated and not really taken seriously in academics anymore. Are you claiming that you know reasons for migration better than academia?

stoy ,

To be frank, no, I don't claim to understand migration factors better than experts.

But if that theory is no longer seen as credible, I wonder how academia explains migration factors.

For me it isn't good enough to just say that the theories are wrong, I need to know what factors they believe causes migration instead.

Prunebutt ,

The homepage I linked to earlier tries to ansewer your questions. Here's the english translation if you don't speak German.

stoy ,

Alright, so push/pull factors does infact exist, but we don't know what they are.

Prunebutt ,

Did you read the article? O.o

stoy ,

Yes?

It talks about how the classic push/pull factors are way less important than culture and language.

To me, denying the push/pull concept is dumb, I'll absolutely conceede that the main push/pull factors may not be as prominant as previously suggested, but the play a part.

The article gives examples of how people want to go to a place with very similar culture and language, and as an example of that the bring up that the vast majority of syrian refugees are housed in Turkey, not other European countries, this is only natural, Turkey is neighbouring Syria, sp naturally most refugees go there, Poland and Ukraina is a similar situation, brodering nations.

Prunebutt ,

To me, denying the push/pull concept is dumb, I'll absolutely conceede that the main push/pull factors may not be as prominant as previously suggested, but the play a part.

This feel to me like a "feels over reals" situation.

stoy ,

That may be right, I see it more like logic reasoning, but I understand that said logic and reasoning is based on feelings and imagined emotions.

Prunebutt ,

It's actually not, since you treat it more like a non-falsifiable "common sense" situation, which actually excludes logical reasoning.

Buddahriffic ,

In the whole bad times lead to strong people, which leads to good times, which leads to weak people, which leads to bad times, we're in the weak people leading to bad times stage. Now things need to get bad enough to start making strong people.

Only problem is the fascists are smarter this time and are pushing everywhere, so this time might not have nation states on the good side.

Prunebutt ,

Why are you repeating that fascist "strong men create good times" bullshit?

Buddahriffic ,

While I'm not surprised if fascists use it, I don't think it is disinformation if they do, seems like more of a human thing where people generally just want to live their lives but asshole control freaks want to take power and gradually do while most just focus on their own things until the control freaks cross too many lines and people decide the best way to live their best life involves removing them from power.

It all depends on how you define "strong people" and "good times". The fascist version of this isn't quite in sync with the one I believe in.

gian ,

Only problem is the fascists are smarter this time and are pushing everywhere, so this time might not have nation states on the good side.

Putting that way is stupid. Yeah, maybe what you call fascist this time are smarter but on the other hand what should oppose them is dumber.

index ,

obtuse populism of the right

Don't fall for propaganda either. Left and right are two buzzword used by rulers to manipulate public opinion and always stay in power.

gian ,

I had somewhat hoped that my fellow countrymen in Germany would not fall for the obtuse populism of the right, but that is exactly what has happened.

Maybe if you (in the generic sense) stop to say that the people who vote for a certain party is (basically) stupid, we all can start to solve problems. The people who voted AfD, like the people who voted for the Right in every other country, are simply saying that they have (or they think to have) a set of problems. Are they real problems ? Maybe, maybe not. But not even acknowledge what these people are saying cannot end in nothing different.

I’m afraid there’s nothing left to counter this, because voters obviously no longer care about rational arguments and don’t even want to acknowledge the real problems of our time.

Voters don't care for rational arguments because the Left throw them out o the window.

Speaking for Italy, the right wing is in government exactly because the Left wing tried way too hard to lose. If the only thing the Left wing can offer is a multi-gender (whatever it means) leader who dont' even speak about what the people's problems are (or, again, what the people perceive as a problem) why someone should vote for them ? Rationally, why I should vote for a person that don't even talk about what I see as a problem instead of a person that at least talk about it ?

And I think that in Germany it is the same thing, even if for different reasons.

They make it easy for themselves and just blame everything on illegal migration or whatever - just as the right-wingers tell them to do.

Yeah, and the problem is that when the right wing say "the illegal migration is a problem" and people say "the illegal immigration is a problem" the only thing the left wing say is "we need to get more illegal migration". See how the left wing is basically let the right wing win and on easy mode ?

Lumisal ,

Ok but the AfD is literally just modern Nazis.

Calling people who voted for them stupidity is the extremely charitable label, because malicious and vile would be more accurate in that case.

Comparing Italy and Germany here just isn't equivalent.

gian ,

Ok but the AfD is literally just modern Nazis.

True, but people (and politicians) still don't understand (or don't want to admit) that like the Nazis, AfD are the consequence, not the cause.

Calling people who voted for them stupidity is the extremely charitable label, because malicious and vile would be more accurate in that case.

Why ? Just because they voted for the Right wing that promise to solve what they see as a problem while the Left wing call them bigot, racist and homophobe, if they even acknowledges what people see as a problem ?
Yeah, maybe the problem is only perceived and I am pretty sure that AfD has no way, other the easy slogan, to solve their problems, but do you really think that ignoring (or worse, insulting) the people who ask you to solve a problem is the right way to get their vote ?

It is not that all the people who voted for the right wing became suddently fascist, it is simply that the other side has no answer to what people are asking, so people go for the only side that has an answer, even if stupid.

DandomRude ,
@DandomRude@lemmy.world avatar

What I mean is that the right-wing parties in Germany have focused their entire election campaign on the issue of migration - even the moderate conservatives (CDU). I think this one-sided explanatory approach is wrong and dangerous. On the one hand, I think it is a case of problem shifting. Important issues such as economic and energy policy or climate protection take a back seat to this one, disproportionately presented issue. On the other hand, I think that the isolationist policy advocated by the extreme right (in Germany, the AfD) is an outdated approach, as it does not solve the problem of illegal migration, but merely creates a counterproductive negative mindset towards immigration. And this is precisely what I consider to be very problematic: due to demographic developments, Germany urgently needs workers from abroad - not only, but especially in so-called low-skilled jobs such as nursing. This fact is being completely overlooked in the political debate, which in this country is characterized by xenophobic and even openly racist rhetoric. In short, I believe that the focus of right-wing parties on migration policy is nothing but empty polemics that is based on attributing blame instead of constructive proposals for solutions - we have other problems that need to be solved. I assume that the situation is similar in other European countries.

gian ,

What I mean is that the right-wing parties in Germany have focused their entire election campaign on the issue of migration - even the moderate conservatives (CDU). I think this one-sided explanatory approach is wrong and dangerous. On the one hand, I think it is a case of problem shifting.

Evidently migration is seen as a problem from at least some of the people.

Important issues such as economic and energy policy or climate protection take a back seat to this one, disproportionately presented issue.

Got your point, but I suppose that what can happen next year is more "urgent" than what can happen in 10 years. People can think about what happen in 10 years if they are relatively sure of what will happen next year, nobody will sacrifice the imminent times for a possible gain so far in the future.

On the other hand, I think that the isolationist policy advocated by the extreme right (in Germany, the AfD) is an outdated approach, as it does not solve the problem of illegal migration, but merely creates a counterproductive negative mindset towards immigration. And this is precisely what I consider to be very problematic: due to demographic developments, Germany urgently needs workers from abroad - not only, but especially in so-called low-skilled jobs such as nursing.

Yes, it is outdated. But the alternative we have seen until this point it is worse than the problem. I am pretty sure that the people are not afraid of the Italian nurse that come to work in a German hospital but they are afraid of the illegal immigrants who comes to Germany. AfD simply took advantage of this and of the missing answer from the other political parties.

This fact is being completely overlooked in the political debate, which in this country is characterized by xenophobic and even openly racist rhetoric. In short, I believe that the focus of right-wing parties on migration policy is nothing but empty polemics that is based on attributing blame instead of constructive proposals for solutions - we have other problems that need to be solved. I assume that the situation is similar in other European countries.

I think you are wrong. Yes, AfD focus on migration policies but it is more than empty polemics, they intercepted what the common people are starting to think, more and more, that these migration policies and the de facto concession to every minority has the right to do whatever they want even violating the country's laws are simply unacceptable.

It would be fool to simply think that all the people who voted for AfD (and the right wing in general) are suddently become fascist without any reason and such reasoning will only end in AfD (and the right wing in general) to gain even more power since the left wing are ignoring what the underlying message really is: "we have these problems, solve them or sooner or later someone will, in a way or another"

Miaou ,

The left has answers to those problems, but implementing the solutions requires more work than reopening Dachau and banning contraception. I've never talked to those imaginary non-racists who vote FN/AfD; all the ones I've talked to want the dirty foreigners out, but they are all too stupid to see that our economies are reliant on them. There's no plan for the "after the purge", never.

DandomRude , (edited )
@DandomRude@lemmy.world avatar

The AfD will always remain unelectable for me - if only because of its openly fascist rhetoric and the associated ideas, which I reject as immoral and inhumane. The claim that the AfD is not a dangerous radical right-wing party is simply false - see Björn Höcke, for example, who is obviously a Nazi with links to various anti-constitutional groups. In addition, their EU election manifesto denies climate change, wants to limit freedom of movement in Europe and wants to abolish the euro as a common currency as well as the GDPR alongside other protectionist, anti-European demands across the board. In my opinion, all these demands are completely absurd and only show how little substance the AfD really has. All they are doing is profiting from the fear-based mood towards immigration that they themselves have helped to create. I can't understand how anyone can vote for such a party.

gian ,

The AfD will always remain unelectable for me - if only because of its openly fascist rhetoric and the associated ideas, which I reject as immoral and inhumane. The claim that the AfD is not a dangerous radical right-wing party is simply false - see Björn Höcke, for example, who is obviously a Nazi with links to various anti-constitutional groups.

I agree and I never said that AfD is not dangerous. What I belive is that people did not become nazis overnight, I don't belive that people wake up one mornign and say "you know what, from today I will be a nazi".
I understand and respect your point but what I am seeing is everyone talking about the AfD (and the right wing in generale) that increase their power, that they are a danger to the democracy and so on but nobody ask the simpler question: why ? Why the right wing is getting all these new votes ?
Until the left wing politicians don't start to ask themself this simple question and are honest giving the answer, the right will continue to rise, that you, me or everyone else like it or not, because they (the left) are missing the point.

And the point is that, for better or worse, the right wing are listening to the people and promise to solve the problems the people have (or that the people think to have: a perceived problem for a person is a real problem, even if the problem itself does not exist in the first place) while the left wing, at least in Italy, is only able to insult me when I express my doubt or ask a solution for what I see as a problem.

In addition, their EU election manifesto denies climate change, wants to limit freedom of movement in Europe and wants to abolish the euro as a common currency as well as the GDPR alongside other protectionist, anti-European demands across the board. In my opinion, all these demands are completely absurd and only show how little substance the AfD really has.

Yeah, and that is why I said that some of their ideas are not that bad (at least in principle) while other are beyond stupidity. They know that they will never be able to act on their plan, but they are reading what more and more people are thinking and act accordingly. The main problem is that nobody else is doing the same.

The right wings win because the left, often, are too busy to keep some sort or moral superiority and fighting for irrelevant details instead of focusing on the real problems.

All they are doing is profiting from the fear-based mood towards immigration that they themselves have helped to create. I can’t understand how anyone can vote for such a party.

Simple, because they have an answer to the people's problems. Wrong but an answer.

Firipu ,
@Firipu@startrek.website avatar

I wanted to vote for them, I did so last time, but they didn't appear on the ballot in my country this time. Couldn't vote for them...

schnurrito ,

Does the average voter just not care at all about anything actually important? What is even going on here?

HeavyRaptor ,

We just had a vote for government officials along the EP vote. Less than 60% turned up which means the most common vote was a vote for nothing. The average voter doesn't care.

schnurrito ,

At least voters who don't turn up are harmless. If all the people who voted for EPP-affiliated parties just didn't turn up instead, we'd face far fewer problems.

nexusband ,
@nexusband@lemmy.world avatar

What a load of bullshit, Voters that don't turn up are the most dangerous of them all, because it lowers the percentage and skews the votes. If 40% go voting and make their vote invalid, those 40% still get counted, meaning the percentage for other parties is overall lower.

WhatYouNeed ,

Brexit in the UK happened because most didn't vote, meaning a small percentage of voters had over-inflated influence.

foremanguy92_ ,

https://lemmy.ml/post/16672524

Fisch , (edited )
@Fisch@discuss.tchncs.de avatar

I managed to convince my brother and a friend of mine to vote for them. This is really disappointing. Over half the votes in Germany were for right-wing parties this time, over 16% were for the right-wing-extremist party AFD. Germany really wants history to repeat itself ig.

Bogasse ,
@Bogasse@lemmy.ml avatar

But at least France is holding its hand this time! 🙃

Deathcrow , (edited )

These results are just a drop in the bucket in relation to the grim state of German election results and overall societal discourse.

There's not much room for optimism right now. Very dark skies ahead and things may get much worse before they will become better.

Nestor_II ,
@Nestor_II@lemmy.world avatar

Same in Belgium, how is this the new reality seemingly everywhere???

Captainvaqina ,

Mass propaganda and some reeeeeaaaaalllly stupid people.

WhatYouNeed ,

MAGA has entered the chat.

index ,

Pretty much the same propaganda "package" is being used all over the world.

Governments work hard and spend billions of public money to try to stay in power, they spend these in modern and technological warfare too.

tibi , (edited )

The parties in power are failing to address the problems ordinary people are facing. Problems like the excessive immigration of people from Asian countries, the insane housing prices, rising cost of living etc. People are looking for alternatives.

These extremists know exactly what the problems are and how to talk about them. They also know better to meet people where they are, like on social media. To most people who are ignorant of politics, these parties seem to solve all their problems.

And let's be real, half the population is below average intelligence. Way too many people don't realize or even worse, don't care, about what these parties are really about.

14th_cylon ,

and unfortunately czech pirate representatives dropped from three to one :(

AFC1886VCC ,

Sad times.

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