Self-Driving Tesla Nearly Hits Oncoming Train, Raises New Concern On Car's Safety ( lemmy.zip )

Craig Doty II, a Tesla owner, narrowly avoided a collision after his vehicle, in Full Self-Driving (FSD) mode, allegedly steered towards an oncoming train.

Nighttime dashcam footage from earlier this month in Ohio captured the harrowing scene: Doty's Tesla rapidly approaching a train with no apparent deceleration. He insisted his Tesla was in Full Self-Driving mode when it barreled towards the train crossing without slowing down.

0x0 ,

TL;DR Tesla driver almost won Darwin award.

TammyTobacco ,

It was so foggy that I'm not surprised the car couldn't figure out what was happening. The guy also said his car had driven towards trains twice before, so he's definitely a dumbass for continuing to use self driving, especially in heavy fog.

skyspydude1 ,

If only there was some sort of sensing technology that wasn't purely optical, that'd be pretty neat. Maybe even using something like radio, for detection and ranging. Too bad no one's ever come up with something like that.

nyan ,

Are there any classes of object left that Tesla FSD has not either hit or almost hit? Icebergs, maybe?

WhiskyTangoFoxtrot ,

https://youtu.be/xll0VOsiE84

ohwhatfollyisman ,

looks like the engineers misunderstood what "training mode" was supposed to do.

they would want to improve their track record after this, otherwise the public would just choo them up.

jaybone ,

Usually with ML, you separate your train and test data.

assassin_aragorn ,

Oh the engineers probably perfectly understood what was going on. But they don't have the ability to correct Musk when he's spewing bullshit.

Ethically speaking though they're supposed to refuse signing off on the work and whistleblow the issues, so they aren't free of guilt.

Right now at my work we have a gap in our safety analysis with a contractor's product, and we've had to fight the VP to explain how we can't just say "it's their problem so we won't deal with it" if its part of our product. One of my colleagues had to go up a head to inform the head of safety that we were having issues. It's still an ongoing fight, but I cannot in good conscience allow the product to be finalized when we know there's a safety issue that needs to be addressed.

Don't get me wrong, it isn't an easy thing to do, and I'm really grateful that my coworker is very steadfast on this. But engineers aren't supposed to approve of any work they know is unsafe.

Akasazh ,
@Akasazh@feddit.nl avatar

I don't see any information about the crossing. Was it a crossing without gates? As the sensors must've picked that up when driving towards it. If so, is a huge oversight not putting up gated crossings nowadays, certainly on busy roads, regardless of the performance of self driving cars.

Woovie ,

The video in the article shows lowered arms flashing. Very visible with plenty of time to stop despite the foggy conditions. It just didn't.

Akasazh ,
@Akasazh@feddit.nl avatar

Ah. I've read it, but I have media tuned of, so I didn't see the video. Thanks for the clarification!

Woovie ,

Yep of course!

ElderWendigo ,
@ElderWendigo@sh.itjust.works avatar

Not being able to identify a railroad crossing without a gate is a failing of the car not the train. Gated crossings are not guaranteed, nor should they be because they don't make sense for every situation in which roads and tracks cross.

Akasazh ,
@Akasazh@feddit.nl avatar

True, but it would be an exceptional failure if the car missed a gated crossing, as it turns out it was.

pirat ,

they don't make sense for every situation in which roads and tracks cross.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peXry-_B87g

pirat ,

they don't make sense for every situation in which roads and tracks cross.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peXry-_B87g

TheFeatureCreature ,
@TheFeatureCreature@lemmy.world avatar

Link?

0110010001100010 ,
@0110010001100010@lemmy.world avatar

Looks like the initial post is simply a person on a forum: https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/ap-fsd-related-crashes.264798/page-8#post-8259936

There are dashcam videos here but I'm not signing up for a dropbox to view them.

The best (subjective, I know) article that I could quickly find seems to be Yahoo: https://www.yahoo.com/tech/tesla-full-self-driving-mode-160500725.html

The videos here don't load for me, could be an extension blocking them.

Not saying it's not credible, but I would take it with a grain of salt.

That said, knowing the issues with FSD I would be shocked to learn this was made up, lol.

Scolding7300 ,

https://packaged-media.redd.it/72xnyanjce1d1/pb/m2-res_480p.mp4?m=DASHPlaylist.mpd&v=1&e=1716346800&s=6e588f60a83d1888468274f882508f2bf4c2ceb5#t=0

noxy ,
@noxy@yiffit.net avatar

https://x.com/DoluBatarya/status/1792807663828431225/video/2

Ozymati ,
@Ozymati@lemmy.nz avatar

Guess it gained self awareness and realised it was a tesla

enleeten ,

"Your father's a Cybertruck!"

Etterra ,

TFW even your Tesla thinks your Elon fanboy tweets are insufferable.

helpmyusernamewontfi ,

what's so "new" about this concern? I'd probably be able to afford a house if I had a dollar for every article I saw on Tesla's wrecking or nearly wrecking because of FSD.

ElPenguin ,

As someone with more than a basic understanding of technology and how self driving works, I would think the end user would take special care driving in fog since the car relies on cameras to identify the roads and objects. This is clearly user error.

danny801 ,
@danny801@lemmy.world avatar

Lol

Linkin.park-numb.mp3.exe

tb_ ,
@tb_@lemmy.world avatar

This is clearly user error.

When it's been advertised to the user as "full self driving", is it?

Furthermore, the car can't recognize the visibility is low and alert the user and/or refuse to go into self driving?

Maddier1993 ,

When it's been advertised to the user as "full self driving", is it?

I wouldn't believe an advertisement.

tb_ , (edited )
@tb_@lemmy.world avatar

I wouldn't trust Musk with my life either.

But, presumably, we have moved beyond the age of advertising snake oil and miracle cures; advertisements have to be somewhat factual.

If a user does as is advertised and something goes wrong I do believe it's the advertiser who is liable.

0x0 ,

But, presumably, we have moved beyond the age of advertising snake oil and miracle cures and advertisements have to be somewhat factual.

Keyword presumably.

tb_ ,
@tb_@lemmy.world avatar

Right. But can you blame the user for trusting the advertisement?

0x0 ,

At the dealership? Kinda, yeah, it's a dealership and news like this pop up every week.

On the road? I wouldn't trust my life to any self-driving in this day and age.

SaltySalamander ,
@SaltySalamander@fedia.io avatar

I mean, yes. I blame anyone who falls for marketing hype of any kind.

jaybone ,

If the product doesn’t do what it says it does, that’s the product / manufacturers fault. Not the users fault. Wtf lol how is this even a debate.

helpmyusernamewontfi ,

problem is most people do. anybody remember watch dogs?

darganon ,

There are many quite loud alerts when FSD is active in subpar circumstances about how it is degraded, and the car will slow down. That video was pretty foggy, I'd say the dude wasn't paying attention.

I came up on a train Sunday evening in the dark, which I hadn't had happen in FSD, so I decided to just hit the brakes. It saw the crossing arms as blinking stoplights, probably wouldn't have stopped?

Either way that dude was definitely not paying attention.

noxy ,
@noxy@yiffit.net avatar

Leaving room for user error in this sort of situation is unacceptable at Tesla's scale and with their engineering talent, as hamstrung as it is by their deranged leadership

SaltySalamander ,
@SaltySalamander@fedia.io avatar

If you are in the driver's seat, you are 100% responsible for what your car does. If you let it drive itself into a moving train, that's on you.

noxy ,
@noxy@yiffit.net avatar

I cannot fathom how anyone can honestly believe Tesla is entirely faultless in any of this, completely and totally free of any responsibility whatsoever.

I'm not gonna say they're 100% responsible but they are at least 1% responsible.

SaltySalamander ,
@SaltySalamander@fedia.io avatar

If Tesla is at fault for an inattentive driver ignoring the myriad warnings he got to remain attentive when he enabled FSD and allowing the 2 ton missile he's sitting in to nearly plow into a train, then Dodge has to be responsible for the Challenger being used to plow into those protestors in Charlottesville.

God fucking damn it, why do you people insist on making me defend fucking Tesla?!

noxy ,
@noxy@yiffit.net avatar

Not defending Tesla is free, you can just immediately enjoy the immense benefits of not defending Tesla.

Scolding7300 ,

https://packaged-media.redd.it/72xnyanjce1d1/pb/m2-res_480p.mp4?m=DASHPlaylist.mpd&v=1&e=1716346800&s=6e588f60a83d1888468274f882508f2bf4c2ceb5#t=0

Video link

Neato ,
@Neato@ttrpg.network avatar

So not even turning towards an intersection with a train or anything complicated. Tesla can't even tell there's a 12" steel wall in front of it. Fucking pathetic.

rsuri ,

How would it though? It probably didn't have any images like this in the train-ing data.

bladerunnerspider ,

I guess some sort of radar could identify solid objects in nearly any condition... Hmm..

Thorny_Insight , (edited )

The new models with hardware 4 (atleast models S and X) have a radar but then again humans can manage without so I have no doubt that a vision-based system will be more than sufficient in the end.

SaltySalamander ,
@SaltySalamander@fedia.io avatar

Yea...that driver is a complete and utter moron who needs his license revoked.

Rentlar ,

Speculation here, I wonder if the ditch lights and general light placement that is different than a normal car confused the self driving module into thinking it's on the wrong side of the road...?

https://www.railpictures.net/images/d2/2/6/4/7264.1457189772.jpg

•w•

Snowpix ,
@Snowpix@lemmy.ca avatar

The locomotive had long passed in the video of the incident, it just kept driving towards the train until it swerved and nearly took out a crossing signal. Funny as that would be, I doubt the ditch lights were the cause.

Rentlar ,

Hmm yeah it seems the oncoming movement from the side may throw it off somehow.

One of the many forseeable problems with solely relying on cameras and visual processing.

0x0 ,

Not in this case, but it may have been when two drivers killed two motorcyclists.

Cornelius_Wangenheim , (edited )

The dash cam footage is linked in the article. Looks to be mostly foggy conditions and their system completely ignoring the warning lights.

You999 ,

I work for a railroad and also own a Tesla. FSD doesn't actually know what a train is at all. If you watch the visualization while in FSD you'll see trains as a long string of semi trucks and it sees the crossing arms as flashing red stop lights (ie treat like stop sign).

Rentlar ,

trains as a long string of semi-trucks

So many long distance delivery trucks take the same route across the country. Why don't we just string them all together, then have one big-ass truck engine in the front pulling it all? And to save on how big the motor needs to be, we'll have steel on steel contact to reduce friction. Whoops, you've got a train all of a sudden. 😅

flashing red lights treated like a stop sign

Seems kind of dangerous to treat as a rule. Not just at railroad crossing but a stopped car with hazards on or a firetruck might confuse the self driving module...

You999 ,

So many long distance delivery trucks take the same route across the country. Why don't we just string them all together, then have one big-ass truck engine in the front pulling it all? And to save on how big the motor needs to be, we'll have steel on steel contact to reduce friction. Whoops, you've got a train all of a sudden. 😅

Get out of here with your crazy ideas...

https://sh.itjust.works/pictrs/image/c5dd8677-ae7a-41df-b319-ba3a557da9b2.jpeg

Buffalox ,

Obvious strong blinking red light ahead, obvious train passing ahead...

Tesla FSD: Hmmm let's not even slow down, I don't see any signs of problems.

FSD is an acronym for Fool Self Driving.

werefreeatlast ,

Oh! As a token of ah....of...aah.. a knowledge mental acknowledgement, we the US people would like to gift this here Tesla to you all, Putin, and Iran leadership. You get a Tesla and you get a Tesla....and you get a Tesla!

cyberpunk007 ,

"new" concerns lol. There are so many of these articles with self driving cars crashing.

admin , (edited )
@admin@lemmy.my-box.dev avatar

Counterpoint: we don't get much articles about human drivers crashing, because we're so used to it. That doesn't make it a good metric to consider their safety.

Edit: Having said that, this wasn't even an article. Just an unsourced headline with a photo. One should strongly consider the possibility of a selection bias at work here.

Thorny_Insight ,

80 people die every single day in traffic accidents in the US alone and we're focusing on the leading company trying to solve this issue when their car almost hits a train.

cyberpunk007 ,

Let's pretend it's 50/50 humans drive ng cars and self driving cars. The numbers would be a lot higher. It's not really a fair comparison.

SaltySalamander ,
@SaltySalamander@fedia.io avatar

Unfounded conjecture. You can't spout your feelings as if they're objective fact.

Cornelius_Wangenheim ,

Tesla is not remotely close to being the leading company. That would be Google/Waymo.

Thorny_Insight ,

What makes them the leader? You can't even buy a car from them and I would be willing to bet that the number of kilometers driven on autopilot/FSD on Teslas is orders of magnitude greater than the competition and rapidly increasing each day. Even the most charitable view would place them on par with Tesla at best. Waymo/Cruze both have remote operators helping for when their vehicles get stuck. Even the MB Drive Pilot will ask for the driver to take over when needed. They're not fully functional self-driving vehicles no more than Teslas are.

piranhaphish ,

I've never hit a train. And I've also never almost hit a train. I think I could go my entire life never almost hitting trains and I would still consider that the bare minimum for a mammal with two eyes and a brain.

SaltySalamander ,
@SaltySalamander@fedia.io avatar

Congratulations. Want a cookie? People drive into trains all the time. You can literally find dozens of videos online showing this very thing.

lemmyhavesome ,

Full Self Demolition

Furbag ,

Oh boy, and they just removed "steering wheel nag" in a recent update. I can't imagine that will have any unintended consequences.

WoahWoah ,

Not really. They just removed unprompted nag. If you're not constantly keeping a hand on the wheel and looking at the road, it nags more and will pull you over if you ignore it.

If you turn off the internal driver monitoring camera, you can't engage FSD or even use lane assist.

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