Heavybell ,
@Heavybell@lemmy.world avatar

I would like to use IPv6 but google and MS are having a dick waving contest with competing implementations, as I understand it. So fuck it.

KillingTimeItself ,

rose are red, violets are blue, money is the reason we can't have nice things.

UntitledQuitting ,

Roses in summer, violets in spring, it’s trivially easy this rhyming thing

KillingTimeItself ,

shitposting properly is the objective, regardless of my rhyming imperative. My post must be shit, in order to get the hits.

FiskFisk33 ,

Roses are red, violets are blue, sod off.

computerscientistII ,

Retardistan is hogging the biggest portion of the IPv4 addresses for themselves. That's why they have the worst IPv6 support. The need arose last in this part of the world.

shadowscale ,
@shadowscale@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

what

bigredcar ,

Just remember we got rid of TLS 1.0 the same thing can be done with IPv4. It's time for browser makers to put "deprecated technology" warnings on ipv4 sites.

NocturnalEngineer ,

IPv4 isn't depreciated, it's exhausted. It's still a key cornerstone of our current internet today.

We still have "modern" hardware being deployed with piss-poor IPv6 support (if any at all). Until that gets fixed, adoption rates will continue to be low. Adding warnings will only result in annoying people, not driving for improvement.

gamermanh ,
@gamermanh@lemmy.dbzer0.com avatar

Adding warnings will only result in annoying people, not driving for improvement.

Given how poorly adoption has gone so far this might be the only way to get actual fast support rolled out. Piss people off, get change

KillingTimeItself ,

IPv4 isn’t depreciated, it’s exhausted.

exhaustion probably also constitutes as "deprecated" once the utility of a system designed to be, well, useful no longer meets the usefulness quotient that it previously provided. Suddenly It's "deprecated technology"

AeonFelis ,

I'll start using it after I migrate to Wayland.

rottingleaf ,

I'm using ipv6 when I occasionally connect to Yggdrasil.

And I think I'll use ipv6 if we ever need to build a new earthnet.

It's a fine technology.

ngn ,
@ngn@lemy.lol avatar

whats the problem with IPv4?

NakedGardenGnome ,

Their ranges are running dry. Nearly all address spaces are taken, so we will need to migrate eventually.
However, since almost everyone still supports both, and ipv4 is much easier to read and maintain, adoption of IPv6 has been slow.

chris ,
@chris@l.roofo.cc avatar

IPv6 changed some things. First and foremost it has a huge address space:

  • IPv4: 4294967296 (2^32)
  • IPv6: 340282366920938463463374607431768211456 (2^128)

Then they simplyfied some things:

  • Removed Broadcast in favor of Multicast and Anycast
  • Added autoconfiguration without a DHCP server
  • Better subnetting support

And much more

JohnEdwa , (edited )
@JohnEdwa@sopuli.xyz avatar

They went just a teeny tiny little bit overboard with the address space. Ipv4 is four groups between 0 and 255, ipv6 is eight groups of four digit hex, 0000 to ffff - e.g the Google DNS ipv4 address is 8.8.8.8. the ipv6 one is 2001:4860:4860:0:0:0:0:8888 (thankfully at least some devices allow using :: to skip all the zeroes, so it's "just" 2001:4860:4860::8888)

But we now have enough ipv6 addresses to give more than 10 billion ipv6 addresses to every single grain of sand on earth, and still have some left over.

chris ,
@chris@l.roofo.cc avatar

They never wanted to worry about address space size again. And this makes subnetting much easier. I have a /56 allocation so I could do 256 /64 subnets. I hope that at some point home routers will have the option for seperate subnets built in. This way you could easily have guest, IoT, work or whatever networks without NAT.

One thing you have to consider though is that the minimum network size that allows autoconf is /64 and that because of the privacy extension a device usually has 3-4 IPv6 adresses.

KillingTimeItself ,

They went just a teeny tiny little bit overboard with the address space.

as is seemingly standard for bit range increases. y2038 is now y2,900,000,000 due to added a silly amount of bits.

ngn , (edited )
@ngn@lemy.lol avatar
  • we already have enough IPv4 addresses thanks to stuff such as NAT and CG-NAT, these devices also protect the end-user by not directly exposing their IP to the internet
  • what's the problem with broadcast? also afaik IPv4 also supports multicast
  • what's the problem with IPv4 subnetting?
chris ,
@chris@l.roofo.cc avatar

In my opinion NAT is a hack that makes lot of things harder than they should be. STUN and TURN are services that are created because there is no easy way to connect two hosts between different NATs. UPnP for port forwarding is another. CG-NAT is even worse. I have heard of so many people having problems with it.

Breadcast is messy. It is like screaming into a room and waiting for an answer. Multicast lets the computer decide if it wants and needs to listen to a specific group message.

IPv4 didn't have cidr from the beginning. They only had classes. IPv6 was designed with complex routing and sub routing in mind.

smileyhead ,

Imagine getting out of phone numbers, so the solutions is for everyone to call the last remaining people with public/routable numbers 24/7 so those people would redirect messages to others.

With Internet, users does not see that easly, but if you host anything for others it's getting harder and harder to accept incoming connections without many layers of hacks to bypass hacks that ISPs do to keep IPv4 network working.

KillingTimeItself ,

IPV4 has a static ceiling for how many addresses can exist. We're concerningly close to that ceiling already. If we were to run out, internet suddenly becomes a fucking nightmare.

VitabytesDev ,

My ISP doesn't provide an IPv6 connection.

cellardoor ,

Time to shift providers. Vote with your wallet

ArmokGoB ,

You have more than one provider in your area?

cellardoor ,

Sure, in the UK we have very strict rules around competition law and broadband access. Here, fibre businesses lay fibre to premises (and are paid to do so). Then, a customer can order from any number of broadband providers, and the company who originally laid the fibre lease that line out at wholesale prices. The broadband operator runs 'over the top' of whoever installed the fibre.

That way, the fibre installer makes money over time, gently and progressively. All broadband companies and smaller 'Alt-Nets' as we call them, have an equal opportunity to a customer base. Finally the customer has the choice to find services matching their needs and price points. Pay a lot get a lot, pay less get less.

I think I have a choice of 6. Names which come to mind are EE, Vodafone, Virgin, Trooli, Cuckoo and Orange.

Zorsith ,
@Zorsith@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

Meanwhile, in the US, the government paid ISPs for fiber to be ran and they just pocketed it instead.

Now we've got smaller companies running fiber and charging less for synchronous gigabit than you'd pay for copper 500mb down 5mb up, and ISPs are panicking a bit.

All the fiber maps have big empty zones where apartment complexes are, sadly.

VitabytesDev ,

Here in Greece, we have three providers, but I don't want to change, since we pay very little money to the one I am in right now in return of slower speeds (5 Mbps download, 0.5 Upload).

Aux ,

5Mbps? OMG...

NeatNit ,

While I agree that it's awfully low nowadays, kudos to them if they know that's all they need.

oldfart ,

Oh no, a cheap offer! 🙀

Takumidesh ,

5 Mbps is slow enough that it should be considered a free tier, like, basic service for being alive tier.

calcopiritus ,

Not always possible. In Spain IPv6 adoption is at like 5%. There's literally no ISP that offers it. I don't even know how that 5% got it, maybe special deals.

cellardoor ,

Yes just had a look, according to Google countrywide it's 10%. Very low, sadly. Neighboring France at 74% IPv6. Interesting to see the difference even with neighbouring countries.

KillingTimeItself ,

move providers? Where, to who? There is currently one provider where i live, soon potentially to be two. Though it's not finalized yet, nor constructed, so for all intents and purposes, it's just the one provider.

ytg ,

Mine provides a connection, but doesn’t expose ports on v6. So I can access v6 services but can’t self-host any.

NeatNit ,

Huh? With IPv6 you get your own IP address, the ISP doesn't need to know shit about ports. Your address is not behind a NAT anymore, and ports don't need to be forwarded.

Perhaps you mean the ISP set up a firewall that blocks incoming connections? In which case, maybe you can have that firewall disabled? ISP firewalls and "safe browsing" packages are always shit.

To be honest though there might be some aspect to this I don't know.

Blackmist ,

Honestly, I was there the first time round, when everyone raw dogged the internet on a single modem per PC. I remember Blaster, and talking people through removing it in 60 second bursts as their PCs shut down over and over.

It was carnage. The average user doesn't need open ports on the internet, and they'll only get their elderly machines infected instantly if they did.

ytg ,

No option to disable… that I found, that is.

RecluseRamble , (edited )

Why should we care? So address space may run out eventually - that's our ISPs' problem.

Other than that I actually don't like every device to have a globally unique address - makes tracking even easier than fingerprinting.

That's also why my VPN provider recommends to disable IPv6 since they don't support it.

MrRazamataz ,
@MrRazamataz@lemmy.razbot.xyz avatar

Because people in countries with ISPs that are unable to provide IPv4 (e.g. too expensive) can't access GitHub easily.

umbrella , (edited )
@umbrella@lemmy.ml avatar

the only reason i can think of is cgnatting ipv4 because of depleted pool. otherwise yea.

i believe you can NAT ipv6 too, i mean so you use the router's address only?

LordCrom ,

Yes you can.

Avatar_of_Self ,

You'd better hope that you can NAT ipv6 because if you aren't behind a CGNAT and then your LAN is completely exposed without a NAT you're very likely going to have devices exploited.

NATs on people's boundary has been doing pretty much all of the heavy lifting for everyone's security at home.

orangeboats ,

The word you are looking for is firewall not NAT.

NAT does not provide security whatsoever. If the NAT mapped your (internal IP, internal port) to a certain (external IP, external port) and you do not have a firewall enabled, everyone can reach your device by simply connecting to that (external IP, external port).

I haven't seen routers that do not come with IPv6 firewalls enabled by default.

umbrella , (edited )
@umbrella@lemmy.ml avatar

everyone can reach your device by simply connecting to that (external IP, external port)

to be fair thats the setup most people run when they open ports.

Avatar_of_Self , (edited )

The word you are looking for is firewall not NAT.

No the word I'm looking for is the NAT. It was not designed for security but coincidentally it is doing the heavy lifting for home network security because it is dropping packets from connections originating from outside the network, barring of course, forwarded ports and DMZ hosts because the router has no idea where to route them.

Consumer router firewalls are generally trash, certainly aren't layer 7 firewalls protecting from all the SMB, printer, AD, etc etc vulnerabilities and definitely are not doing the heavy lifting.

By and large automated attacks are not thwarted by the firewall but by the one-way NAT.

orangeboats ,

Consumer router firewalls are generally trash

[Citation needed]

They are literally piggybacking on the netfilter module of Linux. I don't see how that's trash

Avatar_of_Self , (edited )

They are not layer 7 firewalls for the network which are going to be where most the majority of attacks are concentrated. No citation needed unless you believe they are layer 7 firewalls or using something like Snort.

Added some clarification in my first sentence so it makes a bit of sense.

orangeboats ,

Wait, why are we talking about Layer 7 when NAT and firewalls are Layer 4 at best?

Avatar_of_Self ,

Because, as I said:

layer 7 firewalls for the network which are going to be where most the majority of attacks are concentrated.

The NAT doesn't have to operate at layer 7 to be effective for this because

coincidentally it is doing the heavy lifting for home network security because it is dropping packets from connections originating from outside the network, barring of course, forwarded ports and DMZ hosts because the router has no idea where to route them.

The point is that the SPI firewalls are not protecting against the majority of the attacks we've seen for decades now from botnets and other arbitrary sources of attacks, except, perhaps targeted DDoSing which isn't the big problems for most home networks. They must worry about having their OS' and software exploited and owned in the background, which doesn't get much of an assist from a router's firewall.

Obviously, this is however true for the NAT since the NAT are going to drop connections originating from outside the network attempting to communicate with that software to exploit it

barring of course, forwarded ports and DMZ hosts because the router has no idea where to route them.

orangeboats , (edited )

How is this "dropping packets" not applicable to firewalls, then? You are not just going to casually connect to my IPv6 device as we're speaking. The default-deny firewall in my router does the heavy lifting... just like what NAT did.

Honestly, it just sounds like you need to brush up on networking knowledge. Repeat after me: NAT is not security.

Avatar_of_Self , (edited )

Are you saying that everyone's router's firewall drops all packets from connections that originate from outside of their network?

orangeboats ,

It's a stateful firewall. It simply drops unsolicited packets.

Avatar_of_Self ,

So, really, you were "correcting" me for you and your specific setup at the very beginning because your router's firewall has a deny rule for all inbound connections because I must have been confusing what a NAT and what a firewall is because I must have been talking about your specific configuration on your specific devices.

Holy. Fucking. Shit.

orangeboats , (edited )

Oh come on, are you seriously suggesting that default-deny stateful firewall is not the norm??

Holy. Fucking. Shit. Indeed.

You keep on suggesting to me that you really have no idea how networking works. (Which is par on course for people thinking NAT == security, but I digress)

Let me tell you: All. Modern. Routers. include a stateful firewall. If it supports NAT, it must support stateful firewalling. To Linux at least, NAT is just a special kind of firewall rule called masquerade. Disregarding routers, even your computer whether Linux (netfilter) or Windows (Windows Firewall) comes built-in with a stateful firewall.

Avatar_of_Self ,

Having a NAT on a consumer router is indeed the norm. I don't even see how you could say it is not.

I never said NAT = security. As a matter of fact, I even said

It was not designed for security but coincidentally blah blah

But hey, strawmanning didn't stop your original comment to me either, so why stop there?

Let me tell you: All. Modern. Routers. include a stateful firewall.

I never even implied the opposite.

To Linux at least, NAT is just a special kind of firewall rule called masquerade.

Right, because masquerade is NAT....specifically Source NAT.

I'm just going to go ahead an unsubscribe from this conversation.

orangeboats ,

Were I really strawmanning you? Is "I never even implied the opposite" really true? Quote:

So, really, you were "correcting" me for you and your specific setup

Yeah, my "specific setup"... which can be found in virtually all routers today.

laughterlaughter ,

even easier then fingerprinting.

than*

RecluseRamble ,

Auto-"correct". Thanks, fixed.

Aux ,

That's the dumbest thing I've read today... Your ISP is fleecing you and you're happy with it.

RecluseRamble ,

What the fuck are you talking about? My ISP supports IPv6 just fine, but following my VPN's advice I disable it (on certain devices at least) for privacy concerns. And it makes exactly zero difference in functionality.

Aux ,

OK, not your ISP, but your VPN is shit.

RecluseRamble , (edited )

It's Proton VPN. Lack of IPv6 support is a downer but I wouldn't call them shit.

Edit: maybe elaborate why you deem IPv6 so crucial? As I said: everything works just fine without.

smileyhead ,

that’s our ISPs’ problem

If the Internet means for you a way to access Facebook, Netflix, Google and YouTube, yeah.
But if it means a network to send something to another computer then it's a huge problem.

Because ISP won't care if you can accept connections or not. They don't care about decentralization and being able to host stuff yourself. Most consumers just want a pipe to big services and not to their friend's house.

deadbeef79000 ,

I use IPv6 at home, I selected my last few ISP's because they had IPv6. Left one ISP when they removed IPv6 🤦‍♂️ .

If you can choose ISP choose one that offers IPv6 and let them know why.

JATtho ,

I'm actually bit sad that I had to move onto a ISP which has zero IPv6 support, as I previously did have IPv6. The last thing I did on that connection was to debug the hell out of my IPv6 code I had developed.

snugglebutt ,
@snugglebutt@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

I feel you, moved ISP maybe 3 months ago, only to find out I'm behind CGNAT and no IPv6..

sep ,

That should simply not be allowed. Cgnat for ipv4 is fine if they also provide proper ipv6

Turbo ,

Because I can remember an IPv4 address and not a V6 address!

At least they could have added an extra octet to v4 instead of making it garbyremoved looking

technom ,

You are not expected to remember a v6 address - or even v4 for that matter. They are designed for machines. DNS is designed for humans.

catculation ,
@catculation@lemmy.zip avatar

Last year my ISP forced v6 and disabled the option to set v4 only. I lost the Adgurd Home DNS configuration in all devices. But then learnt a few things and able to use internal ipv6 address for dns although still unable to configure ipv6 in Docker :/

the_doktor ,

Working in computing for years and this is what I've heard

2000: IPv4 is about to dry up, we really need to start moving to v6!

2005: OH NO THE SKY IS FALLING IPv4 IS ALMOST GONE! IPv6 IN THE NEXT YEAR OR TWO OR THE INTERNET WILL DIE!

2010: WE'RE SERIOUS THIS TIME IPv6 NEEDS TO BE A THING RIGHT NOW! HELP!

2015: Yeah, okay, NAT has served us well so far, but we can only take it so far, we really need v6 to be the standard in the next 5-10 years or we're in trouble!

2020: Um... guys? IPv6? Hello? Anyone? crickets

2024: IPv6ers are now the vegans of networking

this may or may not be satire, just laugh if unsure

r00ty ,
@r00ty@kbin.life avatar

But new IPv4 allocations have run out. I've seen ISPs that won the lottery in the 90s/2000s (when the various agencies controlling IP allocations just tossed them around like they were nothing) selling large blocks for big money.

Many ISPs offer only CGNAT, require signing up to the higher speed/more expensive packages to get a real IP, or charge extra on top of the standard package for one. I fully expect this trend to continue.

The non-move to IPv6 is laziness, incompetence, or the sheer fact they can monetize the finite resource of IPv4 addresses and pass the costs onto the consumer. I wonder which it is.

szczuroarturo ,

Oooh is that why ipv6 adoption is so regional
( Based on https://www.google.com/intl/en/ipv6/statistics.html ) . Like france ,germany or india having more than 70 % while italy or poland hanging below 20% ?
Also judging from this site it seems like ipv6 is actually getting adopted at quite the rapid pace. Even if some regions are faring way worse than the others.

ikidd ,
@ikidd@lemmy.world avatar

Apparently it's still cheaper to buy IPV4 blocks than to upgrade all the equipment and IT staff to use 6.

Zorsith , (edited )
@Zorsith@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

Any (enterprise grade) equipment not capable of 6 that is still in use is a ticking time bomb.

Toribor ,
@Toribor@corndog.social avatar

The adoption of IPv6 on some segments of the Internet has lessened the crisis around IPv4 availability.

MystikIncarnate ,

As a networker, ipv6 is the future. I'm a fan of it, but I don't really talk about it anymore because there's no point.

I threw in the towel after an ISP messed up so badly that I just couldn't bother anymore.

At a previous job a client I was doing some work for got a new internet connection at a new site, the ISP ran brand new fiber for it. This wasn't a new building or anything, but the fiber was new. They allocated them a static IPv4 thing as usual, and I asked the tech about V6, and they said we would have to take it up with the planning team, so I did. I was involved in the email chain at the end of the sales process to coordinate the hookup. So I asked. After many emails back and forth, I was informed the connection was allocated.

They allocated one single IPv6 subnet directly off of their device. I couldn't even.

For those that don't understand, the firewall we had connected to the device is an ipv6 router. What normally happens, especially in DHCP customer connections, is that the router will use DHCP-PD to allocate a subnet for the router to use on the LAN, and automatically set up a route to say "reach this subnet we allocated for this router, via this router" kind of thing. I'm dramatically simplifying, but that's the gist. In DHCP-PD, the router will also have an IPv6 address on the ISP-facing link to facilitate the connection. In the case of the earlier story, they gave us an entire subnet to communicate between the ISP and the router, and didn't give us a subnet for the client systems inside the network.

I did ask about this and I can only describe their reply as "visible confusion".

I know many who will still be confused by this point are people who have not used IPv6; to explain further: the IP on your local (LAN) systems needs to be a public IP address, because the router no longer does network address translation when sending your data to the internet. So the IP on the router has no bearing on your computer having a connection to the internet over v6. If your local computer does not have a globally unique ipv6 address, you cannot use IPv6. There are ways around this, NAT66 exists but it's incredibly bad practice in most cases. The firewall I was working with didn't really support NAT66 (at least, at the time) and I wasn't really going to set that up.

ISPs are the reason I gave up on IPv6.

I'll add this other story to reinforce it. I'll keep it brief. A different ISP for a different company at a different site entirely. The client purchased a static IPv4 address, and I asked about IPv6, as you do. To preface, I know this company and used them for my own connection at the time. They have IPv6 for residential clients via DHCP-PD.
I was told, no joke, that because of the static IPv4 assignment, and how they execute that for businesses, that they couldn't add IPv6 to the connection, at all.

The last thing I want to mention is a video I saw, which is aptly named "CGN, a driver for IPv6 adoption" or something similar. It's a short lecture about the evils of carrier grade NAT, and how IPv6 actually fixes pretty much all the bs that goes with CGN, with fewer requirements and less overhead.

IPv6 is coming. You will prefer IPv4 until you understand how horrific CGN is.

the_doktor ,

Yep. It was mostly a joke. Mostly. The bungled adoption of v6 plus all the ways we can still leverage v4 is what's keeping v6 from being adopted any time soon, but one day we're going to have to rip off the band-aid and just go for it. Sure, v6 is going to bring its own issues and weirdness, but FUTURE!

Hobo , (edited )

I swear it's going to be a generational change where it takes a slow adoption by the younger network people as the older network people slowly retire. Kind of like how racism and sexism has diminished. It wasn't like we changed anyone's mind, just that people held onto it until they died and younger people just said, "The future is now, old man." and moved past it.

MystikIncarnate ,

All I want to say about this is that the technology specialists, especially in networking, are usually not this opposed to change. Things change for networking and systems folks all the time. We're used to it. Most of the time the hard sell is with the management folks who Green light projects. They don't want to "waste" money on something that "nobody wants".

Legitimately, one company I asked about IPv6 said to me that customers had not requested it, so they haven't spent any time on implementing it.

As if customers know what's good for them....

crispy_kilt ,

I see you've worked with my employer

Semi_Hemi_Demigod ,
@Semi_Hemi_Demigod@lemmy.world avatar

"IP address are four sets of numbers with dots in between AND THAT'S HOW I LIKES IT!" - Me, an old network guy

Honestly the fact that I can't remember or type IPv6 addresses is a big reason I haven't bothered figuring it out.

Hobo ,

I imagine you sitting there like Scotty, "Give me an ip address, not no colon, not no hexadecimal, and not no bloody double colon. Just 4 numbers between 0 and 255 with a dot in between."

MystikIncarnate ,

So, my argument here is.... Why the hell are you memorizing IP addresses?

Is your DNS so misconfigured that you're still punching in IPs by hand?

DNS is the solution. Going to "router.domain.local" or whatever your internal domain is, is easier to remember than.... Which subnet am I on again? Is this one 192.168.22.254? Or 192.168.21.1?

Stop punching in numbers like a cave man. Use DNS. You won't even notice if it's IPv6 after that

Semi_Hemi_Demigod , (edited )
@Semi_Hemi_Demigod@lemmy.world avatar

And what happens when DNS inevitably falls over and I need to fix it?

And when I'm watching IP addresses scroll by, IPv6 ones are a lot harder to read than v4

KillingTimeItself ,

some super gigabrained chad linux nerd will have written a tool to automatically configure it and have open sourced it.

You could probably just use that. I think like most things in life, the answer is automation.

Semi_Hemi_Demigod ,
@Semi_Hemi_Demigod@lemmy.world avatar

I wouldn't trust it unless I wrote it myself. And even then maybe not.

KillingTimeItself ,

well then go and do it manually, surely you as a human wouldn't make any mistakes. Would you?

MystikIncarnate ,

DNS, by its very nature is redundant. So DNS shouldn't just fall over. If it does, you're doing something wrong.

If you absolutely need to go to IP addresses, they should be documented.

Unless DNS is outright wrong, there should not be an issue.

For scrolling: are you staring at active log files? Who isn't using a syslog aggregator? You can easily look up the IP of whatever device that is interesting and filter the log by that IP.

crispy_kilt ,

That's not what an IP is though, that's just dotted representation

el_abuelo ,

Speaking of being an old man, let me tell you:

"The future is now old man" != "The future is now, old man."

I genuinely tripped over this sentence thanks to the lack of punctuation.

Hobo ,

Fixed. Thanks!

Zorsith ,
@Zorsith@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

Next up, the Oxford comma; Meet the strippers, Hitler and Stalin

MystikIncarnate ,

The important bit is that almost every major web service is already running fully dual stacked. Azure, Amazon, Meta, CloudFlare, Google.... If it's a commonly known internet company, it's probably ready for IPv6.

There's still plenty that isn't ready, but most well known things have been ready for years at this point.

the_doktor ,

The fact that almost the entire internet is controlled by those evil companies is really fucking sad. I remember the old days when people, you know, hosted their own shit and used manual load balancing to keep large sites up and working.

SeeJayEmm ,
@SeeJayEmm@lemmy.procrastinati.org avatar

I gave it the old college try about 6 months ago. Found out how to send the req for a subnet to my ISP. Configured my opnsense. When it worked, it worked. But it would randomly stop routing regularly. After a lot of troubleshooting determined it was the isp and have up.

Maybe I'll try again in another 6 months.

MystikIncarnate ,

This is remarkably common. A major factor is how to handle renewals. There appears to either be bugs with the procedure or there's disagreement on how it should be handled. So it will work, for a while, until a renewal needs to happen, then everything goes to shit.

I've directly witnessed this in router/firewall logs. That there's an attempt to renew the DHCP-PD, which does not get a valid reply.

KillingTimeItself ,

so is there just no standard for renewal? Or are ISPs just refusing to use the standard, for whatever reason?

I can't imagine we don't already have a standard for this shit. I'd be baffled if we didn't. So surely it's just ISPs being their usual, useless selves.

MystikIncarnate ,

This is less to do with the ISPs and more to do with the implementation of DHCP-PD renewals on various software/hardware devices. I'm not going to point any fingers, but it seems that some vendors don't play very nicely with other vendors.

KillingTimeItself ,

oh so it's a classic instance of shitty hardware vendors doing shitty software things.

Gotta love technology.

MystikIncarnate ,

Always has been

SpaceCowboy ,
@SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca avatar

Thanks for the comment. Kinda confirms my approach (mostly out of laziness) of "I'll do it when the ISP starts pushing it" is the correct one.

I think tech advocacy generally doesn't work, and in the case of IPv6 I can't see it working at all unless they can convince the ISPs to devote a lot more resources to it. But since I'm not an ISP... meh, whatever I guess.

Disaster ,

CGnat is an abomination.

Alawami , (edited )

At least you can talk to someone at your ISP who can change things, in 10 years I was literally never been able to contact someone who knows anything about networks in any of the 3 big ISPs here.. all I get is this:

"oh you have speed issue? Let me "refresh" your connection"

"No sir i have no speed issues, I just need to be able to open IPv6 ports"

"Oh trying to changing the cable port?"

"Sigh.. can you transfer me to advanced support plz"

"Sure thing"

Advanced support: "So you having speed issues?"

"No i just need to be able to open IPv6 ports"

"Ah ports, you can do that from your router settings i think"

"No sir, you are the only ISP here where I can't open ports or receive any ICMP on my ipv6"

"Let me see.. i'll refresh your connections"

And it's the same of many different issues, you can't get a hold of anyone who can change anything in any layer about any config. Take it or leave it..

MystikIncarnate ,

At most, the difference between your experience and mine was that the support I recieved at least understood what IPv6 was, which is likely a function of most of my stories being from business support, rather than residential support.

Almost every time I call I get nowhere. Which is why I've given up. Obviously, someone high up in the technical teams is trying to implement IPv6 with very limited success. So I'm just trying to be patient, as they navigate the hellscape of corporate approvals and get things working.

It's slow going, but at least it's going.

Goodie ,

Imho

Ipv4 and peak oil are similar.

We're constantly running out; but every fes years, we figure out a new way to extract more oil/make do with the addresses we currently have.

Someone sells of their underused block, or more people move to the services with excess IP addresses if they need one.

KillingTimeItself ,

We’re constantly running out; but every fes years

critical difference here was also the consumption of oil. It's gone down significantly since then as processes have moved to other materials and more efficient methods of manufacturing, due to the price increase of oil. Likewise, our oil consumption has gone down, and our ability to extract it HAS gone up, just not all that much. The big difference is that there's just more oil that we know about now, than there used to be.

IPV4 addresses are a static pool, that never changes, the only thing that changes is the adoption of them, as certain things move to IPV6 they're still likely to hold IPV4 in some capacity, as IPV6 isn't fully rolled out almost anywhere.

Goodie ,

critical difference here was also the consumption of oil. It’s gone down significantly since then as processes have moved to other materials and more efficient methods of manufacturing,

Do you have a source for that? Because this seems to suggest fossil fuel and oil demand might of roughly plateaued the last few years, the dip looks pretty welly correlated to Covid.

IPv4 addresses are a static pool, yes. But we're continually using them more efficiently, the same as Oil. The difference being that Oil has a limit on the amount of energy contained in its chemical bonds, but you could quite happily host 1,000 or 10,000 websites on a single server.

KillingTimeItself , (edited )

Do you have a source for that?

yes sorry, what i meant to say was "the expected usage of oil over time" When a lot of the early to late 90's "we're running out of oil stuff was happening, a lot of predictions would've been based on continued increased usage of oil. Rather than it just randomly plateauing. It's likely that the predicted curve would've have been significantly more exponential than presented.

And we're also talking on a more local scale here, so this would be more centric around a single country, or north america specifically. Or perhaps assuming that third world countries would start industrializing or something. There are any number of factors that could have influenced the potential consumption predictions.

another interesting tidbit, this was also just after the time we thought we were going to build a lot of nuclear power, so arguably that influenced the older variants of the graph as well as the modern consumption of oil for power production, for example.

IPv4 addresses are a static pool, yes. But we’re continually using them more efficiently, the same as Oil.

Yeah but idk about this one. Perhaps at the scale of CDNs and proxy distribution, but generally, i don't see this being very possible, simply because in order for a site to be supported strictly by IPV6 it must be supported by all connecting clients, and considering that most clients today are uh, not IPV6. If you want your service to work, it's going to need to be IPV4. I mean sure internal communications, but those aren't real so you can use any subnet range you want, it makes no difference.

but you could quite happily host 1,000 or 10,000 websites on a single server.

it depends on what you classify as a server, what you define a website as, and how you define the usage of it, but yeah generally, ignoring the fact that this is irrelevant, it's about that simple.

Goodie ,

And we’re also talking on a more local scale here, so this would be more centric around a single country, or north america specifically.

North America is an interesting example here, because North America HIT peak oil once, way back in the 80's, and it was only with the invention of Fracking that it came back.

Yeah but idk about this one. Perhaps at the scale of CDNs and proxy distribution,

Once upon a time people debated if virtual hosts were best practice or if that would affect their SEO. We've definitely progressed since then, both to conserve IP addresses, but mainly because DDOS prevention is best done centralised (Looking at you Cloudflare).

Kalcifer ,
@Kalcifer@sh.itjust.works avatar

We're constantly running out; but every fes years, we figure out a new way to extract more oil/make do with the addresses we currently have.

It's a supply and demand situation. We run out of things not only when they are physically exhausted, but also when it's not economically viable to find ways to make more. But when demand increases enough, it will eventually become economically viable again.

Aux ,

IPv4 dried up a long time ago. But it's different for every country. Countries like US and UK simply took over large blocks of IPv4 addresses and countries like Brazil got fucked. So, if you're in a country with a large pool, you won't notice any issues today, but if you're not so lucky, a lot of internet services are not accessible to you because some dickhead got IP banned and that IP is shared by thousands if not millions of users in your country.

smileyhead ,

Who needs an IP address anymore? What year is it? You want to connect to your friend's computer and exchange some information via computer system, seriously? Just use Cloudflare, Google or Azure and route everything through them.

the_doktor ,

You... do know how computers connect to each other, right? I hope this is sarcasm. But these days unless it's specifically stated, it's usually not, just a bunch of dumb kids who can't understand how the internet works.

And then the dumb kid realizes he's dumb and says "uh yeah, sarcasm, duh, didn't you know i was joking, hahahahaha, yep, I knew, of course I did!" when he totally didn't.

But regardless of the fucking point, no one wants to use these big business trash that is ruining the internet.

KillingTimeItself ,

it's y2k, but not 2k, it's just y.

mindlight ,

2 months ago I thought I'd start learning IPv6 and started watch some intro videos on YouTube.

Holy crap... It's a beast and it just felt like if you don't know what you're doing you might lose all control over your network.
Ok. So a device didn't get a dhcp address? No problem... It creates it's open IP address and starts talking and try to get out on internet on its own....

Normally that's not a problem since your normal home router wouldn't route 169.254.x.x.... But it just seems like there's A LOT to think about before activating IPv6 at home.
I've got a Creality K1 Max... Fun thing: factory reset also creates a new MAC Address... So there's no way in hell thay I just let her lose by activating IPv6.

Ps. Yes, I most likely panic because I haven't figured out IPv6... But until I understand IPv6 there's just going to be IPv4.

r00ty ,
@r00ty@kbin.life avatar

Generally, a device cannot get an internet facing IP address unless something else on your network is advertising the prefix. In fact, I'd argue there's little point using DHCPv6 now. Some devices are only interested in SLAAC. But, if you have a router that gets an IPv6 prefix from your ISP (usually /48 or /64, but you can get other sizes) it will usually then advertise that onto your local network.

As for the IP addresses. I would say that you should definitely still have a firewall in place. But the setup is the same as IPv4 just without NAT. e.g. you set a blanket rule for your prefix to allow outbound and block unrelated inbound. Then poke holes through for specific devices and services.

By default, IPv6 implementations make an assumption that they're not going to be a server (if you want a device to be a server, you can just set a static IP) and their "main" IP will be a random looking one (and the configuration will depend on whether it uses an interface identifier to create the address, or if it is random) within your (usually huge) allocation. But more than that, they will usually be configured to use the IPv6 privacy extensions (RFC4941). This generates extra temporary addresses per device, which are used for outbound connections and do not accept incoming connections. That is, people cannot see your IP address on their host from your connection and then port scan you, since no ports will respond. You could still have ports open on your "real" IP address. But, that one isn't ordinarily used for outgoing connections, so no-one will know it exists. To discover it they would need to scan your whole prefix (remember that the /64 allocation you will generally get is the internet * the internet in terms of address space, that is much harder to brute force scan).

I think the differences between IPv4 and IPv6 might seem scary, but most of them are actually improvements on what we had before, making use of the larger pools we have available. Once you work it out, it's really not so bad.

I would like to see routers setup to firewall ipv6 by default to give the same protection as NAT though, meaning users need to poke holes into the firewall for incoming connections. Maybe some do. I know mine did not and it was one of the first things I did.

sloppy_diffuser ,

Ok. So a device didn't get a dhcp address? No problem... It creates it's open IP address and starts talking and try to get out on internet on its own....

Its not that different from a conceptual point of view. Your router is still the gate keeper.

Home router to ISP will usually use DHCPv6 to get a prefix. Sizes vary by ISP but its usually like a /64. This is done with Prefix Delegation.

Client to Home Router will use either SLACC, DHCPv6, or both.

SLACC uses ICMPv6 where the client asks for the prefix (Router Solicitation) and the router advertises the prefix (Router Advertisement) and the client picks an address in it. There is some duplication protection for clients picking the same IP, but its nothing you have to configure. Conceptually its not that different from DHCP Request/Offer. The clients cannot just get to the internet on their own.

SLACC doesn't support sending stuff like DNS servers. So DHCPv6 may still be used to get that information, but not an assigned IP.

Just DHCPv6 can also be used, but SLACC has the feature of being stateless. No leases or anything.

The only other nuance worth calling out is interfaces will pick a link local address so it can talk to the devices its directly connected to over layer 3 instead of just layer 2. This is no different than configuring 169.254.1.10/31 on one side and 169.254.1.11/31 on the other. These are not routed, its just for two connected devices to send packets to each other. This with Neighbor Discovery fills the role of ARP.

There is a whole bunch more to IPv6, but for a typical home network these analogies pretty much cover what you'd use.

farcaller ,

SLACC doesn't support sending stuff like DNS servers.

It does

smileyhead ,

Those are just the same networking concepts as v4. Just 128 bits instead of 32. The hard thing can be ULA or SLAAC, which are like "yeah, just some random address to not get conflicts" and "yeah, first half your ISP gives you, second is taken from MAC address".

We even get rid of a bunch loaded crap that holepunching v4 and making it work developed through years.

Maybe it seems hard, because what was used before was not really learned how it works but just relied on hacks.

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