So, we should generalize entire groups of people to teach them a lesson. No matter their feelings or the fact that the majority of people in said group are just living their lives. A bunch of bad apples should make and entire group socially responsible.
Got it. 👍
Yes there are too many men who think they live in the 50s and can do whatever they want to woman. If you say ALL men are like that, you're invalidating the effort of most men trying to be better human beings while being assholes.
If you can't understand that. You are not looking to make things better, just to throw hate around.
Something about would you feel safer being stalked by a creepy dude or being stalked by a bear in the woods. Both could equally kill you, just one is more likely than the other to actually kill you.
Close, but it's just "would you rather" with any random man in the woods vs a random bear. No implied creepiness on the man's part. Just who would you feel more safe knowing one of the two is in the woods.
The bear meme is meant to make men uncomfortable and surprised by how they are seen as a generalization among women. It isn't meant to be anti-men or anything, it's just meant to show the lived experience of women to men in a hypothetical absurdity.
I get that, and you're right. But a lot of people are taking the meme too far, and taking something that was originally good, and making it it anti-men.
Men's feelings actually matter, and we as society need to start actually thinking about them, rather than just telling them to man up all the time.
I've talked to a whole bunch of anti-bear men, and all of them accept the point when told in an empathetic way that acknowledges their right to feel the way they do. You can take that feeling and channel it as a force for good, rather them antagonising them and pushing them further away
(Not saying you in particular are doing this)
Edit: Please respond instead of downvoting. I'm failing to see the problem with identifying that there's a enough antagonistic commenters that maybe it's pushing people in the wrong direction. And we now require an over-correction of empathy to undo that damage.
What part is sexist? There can be no equality if uncomfortable realities are brushed aside, illuminating the very real lived experience that women are constantly wary of the average man allows us to confront said issue. Telling women that they are "wrong" and just need to feel different about the issue just perpetuates this distrust.
The part where there's 3.8 billion men on the planet, and although the stats are hard to put together, lots of contradictions, they point to less than 1% of them being incarcerated (for all crime not just crime against women) even vastly exaggerating that to 5% (to account for men not being caught etc) leaves 95% of the general male population being decent and no threat. Blaming men, when men aren't the issue is sexist. Blaming religion, poor education etc would be less sexist and aimed more towards what the actual issue is and help work towards a cure, man Vs bear does nothing but divide and spread fear.
Stats show that black people perform a higher amount of crime than other races, does this mean we should be racist? Does this mean you'd pick a random bear over a random black person? I don't think it does, because it's not the colour of their skin, nor is it the apparatus between some bodies legs that defines them. Blaming the wrong thing is sexist, or racist in both these cases.
I'm not saying women aren't walking around terrified, but a lot of that has to do with polar discussion that doesn't help like man Vs bear telling them they should live in fear and does nothing to help the actual problems. And if you don't believe that to be true you are part of a much bigger problem humanity is facing, misinformation and fear mongering.
This is just an elaborate "not all men," and just shuts women up.
You said it yourself accurately, women are walking around terrified. The average woman heavily distrusts the average man. This isn't a call to demonize men, but to showcase that collective distrust so we can move beyond it.
What good does it do unless we look at the causes. All this does is divide people. Why is that the right thing to do? We should be joining together to extinguish toxic masculinity, stamp out religion and improve education. Not radicalising toxic femanisity
Again, you're missing the forest for the trees. The fact is, many men think that equality has already been achieved, despite systemic power imbalances.
Radical feminism is a good thing, "toxic feminisity" is largely a strawman myth.
I think you're missing the point entirely. The man Vs bear argument serves no purpose but to divide. And when people fight with emotion, exactly what you're doing, women lose the right to abortions, to vote. There's no logic behind these decisions, they are fueled only by the emotions of closed minded people. Adding to the fire helps nobody and in fact takes things a step backwards.
Misinformation and fear mongering isn't the way to solve this issue. Alienating the 95% of decent men that want the same thing as women won't help the cause. You're blaming the wrong group of people with polar blanket statements like man Vs bear
You are rejecting the purpose, which is to force men to acknowledge the fear the average woman has for the average man. The purpose isn't to divide, that's stupid and a strawman.
I am not "fighting with emotion," I am telling you in no uncertain terms that the average woman distrusts the average man due to systemic power imbalances.
Pretending everyone is just using "misinformation and fearmongering" is reactionary nonsense that should not be taken seriously by anyone trying to fix these issues. Men are working actively against women even without knowingly trying to by supporting a patriarchial system without criticizing it.
You are going one step further, and actively trying to shut down the voice of women.
"NOT ALL MEN!" Screams the men who think themselves decent for simply not assaulting women, rather than doing the bare minimum and listening and supporting women.
Fine don't blame the things responsible..this isn't an argument I can win when you're attacking with emotion and ignoring anything factual.
Men aren't working against women, the vast majority want the same thing. You are misinformed, because you're basing your evidence solely on emotion and teaching people they should hate men, rather than work together to fix the issues which time and time again I have explained isn't men, but systems put in place by things like religion and poor education.
You're making enemies where there are allies because you will not listen to reason.
But you go on hating and blaming men, see if it solves your issues or if you actually only aid in retaliation and lose more rights.
There are 3.8 billion men on the planet. A tiny % of them (less than 1%) want to harm women. Miniscule in fact, the vast majority want women to have all the rights they have, me included.
You don't know what the average woman wants any more than I do. I know loads of women none of them afraid of men, some are even married to men. They don't go about their days in fear you are just telling me they are and I should accept that because that's how you feel, because you feel it doesn't make it true. I also know loads of men and none of them have any hatred towards women they are in fact allies.
Yes historically men have had more power and it is still very much the case, we need to work together to change this, denying that change hasn't or isn't happening is fear mongering when in fact everyday battles are won in the fight for women's rights.
Statistically and logically you are wrong, so the only thing you have is emotions, that's why I am telling you that you are attacking with emotions.
You can't even acknowledge that I'm on your side, this is the right discussion to be having, you just need to aim your hatred at the right people. The politicians that want to take away rights, the religious fanatics who quote bible verses like women shouldn't speak unless spoken to, the toxic masculinity that makes fathers teach their sons the wrong life lessons. We need to work together not blame men for something that the majority of men want to fix as much as you do.
Wow, lots of anecdotes, and yet most women are picking the bear. I never said all women fear all men, but that the average woman fears the average man. Pretty huge distinction!
Secondly, there's a massive difference between simply wanting equal rights, and being willing to tackle highly imbalanced social power structures.
I am not blaming men. I am blaming the partiarchial system, and hoping fellow men can also correctly point the blame at systemic issues, rather than telling women to shut the fuck up and explaining to them what they should be fighting.
You aren't an ally yet, because you are dedicated to silencing women. Sit back, listen, and then support. Easy as that. Yes, religion and conservativism are also bad, but those are also products of systemic issues. You say we need to look at the cause, yet you're contributing to it by invalidating the lived experience of women.
Basically, I'm telling you to touch grass and stop contributing to the reasons why the average woman is picking the bear.
I never once tried to silence you, I'm actually enjoying our discussion very much and think it's a very important one to have. All I'm trying to say is you're not alone in what you are fighting for and there are many many men on your side statistics back this up. But when you pick the bear you are actively working against the men trying to help. By not acknowledging the majority of men are on your side you are causing division, you are making things worse for yourself by not accepting we are trying to change things for the better for everyone.
Basically telling you to touch grass and stop contributing to the fire that's taking women's rights away by blaming the issue on the wrong thing. You are teaching young women they should be afraid of men, when statistics and reality say the opposite is true and we should be all working together for a
common goal.
You are trying to silence me though, telling me I can only sit down and listen to obvious sexism. When what people should do when they experience sexism is speaking up and speak loud.
I am going to restate my thesis, perhaps wording it in an alternative manner may help you: most men do not intentionally side against women. That is why the bear discourse has been so polarizing and shocking for men like yourself. You believe yourself to be supportive of women, but as you aren't actually listening to the many women picking the bear, you serve to silence them.
When society changes, fragments of past society remain. Just because there are few if any legal limits on women in developed countries does not mean that they hold equal societal power. Few women are CEOs or world leaders.
The path to the liberation of women cannot be done via simply making men and women equal under the law. This ignores the entirety of patriarchial history and results in power remaining in the hands of men.
That is the crux of the issue you are silencing by silencing women. Telling women that they are stupid for fearing men, who hold far more societal power than they do, is in fact sexist of you, even if unintentional. I am not teaching women anything, the Bear Discourse has purely been an opportunity for me to listen to women.
Honestly you are coming across very aggressively, very toxic and seem unwilling to listen to any of the facts. so I'm going to end my part in this discussion, you can live in your fantasy world where change isn't happening. In my world we've had women running the country multiple times. They appear and excel in every career, and it's very easy to see things are happening, I'll admit slower than I'd like, but they definitely are. Just the other day women won the right to go topless on beaches in Belgium, another win in the fight against sexism.
I feel you're just a stubborn argumentative person, so any mention of facts or any calls to reality fall on deaf ears.
What facts have you presented, and why is your response to women telling you they feel unsafe alone around the average man "shut the fuck up, they are on your side, actually" and not "wow, that's horrible, I wonder why that is?"
I never once said my response is shut the fuck up. Stop putting words in my mouth.
My response was, wow that's terrible I wonder what caused that, is it religion, politics should we be fighting that instead.
The facts were it's only a very low percentage of men lower than 1%
That every day battles are won in the fight against equality
That we've had women in power in my country and all over the world
That the majority of women I know do not fear men
That things are moving in the right direction (albeit slowly)
You're being reductionist to the point of losing the actual point but, if we assume you're doing so in good faith, then yes. Without a doubt yes. Given a choice between a person's feelings being hurt and a person getting physically hurt, the latter should win, especially when the only reason those feelings are hurt is because the person refuses to try to understand why or is so fragile they're unable to handle criticism.
Most men I know aren't made uncomfortable by this and, so far, the only ones who do have their feelings hurt are absolutely the ones women should choose the bear over. Not because they're bad people, but because an important point is being made and instead of trying to understand, they dig their heels in, refuse to understand, and now gripe about being victims because people are talking about things they don't want to think about.
I'm being far more universal than the obsession this narrow cisgender thread promotes. It was an issue with the pandemic. It is an issue with abortion rights. It is an issue with elections. It is an issue with so many things, that you would have to want to be willfully ignorant to focus on any single one. Your problem is humanity and their obsession to sacrifice people's safety for their feelings. People who put their feelings over your safety are the ones who should be avoided. No need to bring pandas into it.
All the angry men here complaining about this meme are coping, face it men are seen as evil and dangerous by women, and they are right to see you that way. I was once like the people here talking shit about "misandry" and then my egg cracked and those angry masculine mannerisms melted away after I went on estrogen.
It was then that I realized men are evil, masculinity is toxic, these are statements of truth and the only ones who deny this shit are cis men themselves.
You're correct, but you're every bit as angry as they are, and your comment is so devoid of any respect or empathy for men as fellow human beings that you're only making things worse for everyone.
You are the ammo that anti-sjw grifters put in their guns.
Like it or not, men are 50% of the population, and no one is getting anywhere by needlessly antagonising them
Not only are they 50% of the population that's circa 3.8 billion men, the stats are hard to find accurately but less than 1% of them are incarcerated for crime (all crime not just sexual assault) even if you were to drastically enhance that to say 5% (to account for men that have never been caught etc.) that still leaves 95% decent men in the world.
The men Vs bear thing is a bullshit hypothetical designed only to divide and not address the real issue women are facing, from religion (especially in politics), poor education and internet fear mongering such as the men Vs bear topic designed to make people live their lives in fear instead of correcting the issues.
I'm not trying to say women don't live in fear, just that sexism isn't the way to fight sexism. It's pretty common knowledge that black people have the highest statistics for crime in general (without going into further discussion) does this mean we should all become racist? Because I certainly don't think that's the answer, just like topics designed around sexism aren't the answer here.
It's not that it makes me uncomfortable, but more misinformation and exaggerated statements is one of the biggest threats currently facing humanity, man Vs bear does nothing but add to this.
Yes there is a problem, yes it needs addressing, discussions like this are far from helpful and only alienate half the allies.
The whole discussion is entirely feelings based, as despite the percentage men actually committing being really low (as far as our stats can tell) it doesn't really matter that much.
Same with the bear, actual bear attacks are so statistically unlikely to occur that it's irrelevant to the discussion, even if we had the required stats to make it a 1 to 1.
Assuming only 1% of men do something (illegal or otherwise) that makes a woman feel afraid, that 1% can do that to multiple women. If they do it to 100 different women, that's enough that 100% of women have experienced it.
Negative experiences stick in our mind a lot more readily than good ones, and it creates the perception that a chosen random man could be more dangerous than a bear.
And I'm not saying they're wrong, my take away is still that enough men are shit, and we as a society need to do better.
Equally, using shock value and absurd hypotheticals is going to cause emotional reactions in men, and sure, that gets the message out. But we can't act surprised and start demonising men when they act shocked and disagree with the absurd hypothetical. It's valid to feel hurt by the statement, and telling people their feelings don't matter distracts from the issue
The discussion is the right one, but we all need to start blaming the right people. Toxic masculinity, religion and poor education.
Dividing people like this isn't the way forward.
Fellas, it's not that your feelings don't matter, everyone's feelings matter, it's that your feelings don't matter more than the safety of others.
You're getting mad at the wrong shit here. You're mad at the women for not wanting to be stuck in a forest with a random dude, when in all actual fact, that decision was borne from a plethora of experience with random dudes, most of that experience being negative.
Almost all of that negativity is because there's to fucking many creepy ass dudes making us all look bad. To be blunt, I have high hopes, and expectations from my fellow man; especially when it comes to respecting women. Yes, there's a nontrivial number of crazy bitches out there, in the same breath, there's a lot of crazy dudes too. They're making us all look bad. Be mad at them.
The women are only making the best decision for their own health and safety, based on their experience. Be the change you want to see in the world, my brothers. Be that change.
I really struggle to empathize with the mindset required to come into a post (both the original bear post and this one) about women being sexually assaulted and going "BuT wHaT aBoUt MeN's FeELiNgS!?!?111!!???"
You people need to crawl out of your own assholes.
I'm just going to say it. Any arguments of "what about..." Are effectively pointless banter.
It's not adding anything to the discussion, and bluntly it's actively trying to distract people from the point, and change the discussion into something different.
yea but like at the same time annoying a bunch of butthurt lonely guys really isnt solving the problem and rather pushes them towards the manosphere which is where the problems start to grow
This post, and most of the other bear ones, are in normie forums full of people not familiar with feminist discourse. The reason for that? It's funny, cathartic, shocking, and a little inflammatory. And that's fine, it's meant to be. It gives it reach and allows people to learn and others to teach. The problem is that when men do find this to be shocking and inflammatory, they need to channel that emotion somewhere, and antagonistic/angry internet discourse is not the correct way respond to that.
There was a popular post the other day of "If you don't understand why women pick the bear, you are the bear", that directly antagonises the exact people who need to hear about why women choose the bear, and those people don't need to be antagonised, they need a little empathy and non-confrontational discussion to get there.
When I talked to them calmly, and acknowledged the way they feel, validated their emotions, then explained the topic to them, every single one I talked to accepted the core point and came out better for it. Take that angry energy, educate, and direct that energy in the right direction.
It's not that men's feelings should trump women's safety. It's that you need to think about why people are disagreeing so you can effectively talk to them
The part you aren't getting is obvious, it's not misandry. The gymnastics you're going through to deny basic logic is impressive though. Thanks for the links, they were pointless. Trust me, if you want to compare lists, mine are longer.
And in the overwhelming majority of these cases, the perpetrators are men, AND NOT A SINGLE FUCKING ONE WAS A BEAR.
Edit: and cute strawman, no one's implying ALL MEN, just the creeps. Which you might identify with but doesn't cover the entire gender. Women making the logical choice - pick from a population that def has rapist creeps or a population that isn't known for kidnapping and raping women, gee whiz batman...
You have no understanding of statistics. How many more men does the typical woman encounter a day than bears? I’m willing to bet women encounter dozens or even hundreds of men, but pretty well zero bears. The RATE of bear attack per encounter is much higher than the rate per encounter with men.
Your argument makes no sense. Sorry, anyone who thinks they are safer with a random large wild carnivore that has sharp teeth and claws than a random human male is foolish.
And, yes, you are implying that all men are rapists. After all, the statement isn’t that you merely don’t FEEL safe, but that you are not safe, period in the presence of a man. Therefore it is implied the man will 100% harm you.
Oh don't get it twisted sparky, I'm a guy. I understand why women feel threatened because I've seen men be fucking creeps my entire life.
The bear will never rape the women. Get it through your dense fucking nugget. Goddamn it's been repeated over and over again.
Let me imply this: your defensiveness over this is hilarious. If you're not a creep predating on women, you wouldn't feel upset about this at all, it's simple math: the bear will never rape the women, keep it in a box, kidnap it, force it to bear children, etc, etc., etc, so no matter what statistics you want to pull out, it's NOTHING COMPARED TO THE HISTORICAL RECORD ALONE.
You sure don’t seem to get that. You think rape is the only tragedy that can befall a woman.
No, it's simply the one we were talking about at the moment. That and how women seem to prefer death by bear than trusting many men, and how guys like you are making that logic seem pretty fucking sound every response lol.
You realize men rape other men too right?
So you know, I'd actually pick the bear myself. Because THERE'S STILL NO HISTORY OF BEARS RAPING PEOPLE - MEN OR WOMEN.
I've been through this. People rarely encounter bears. They encounter men all the time. Of course there is more violence from men, but I would argue more surprise encounters with bears end badly than encounters with men. And rape is hardly the only violence that can befall a woman.
But why bother? All of us men are disgusting rapists, apparently. Guess I should be like Shrek and retire to my swamp if everyone will just be afraid of me. Too bad I don't actually have one.
or you could be the kind of guy that didn't question women based on their decisions, but based upon the dystopia we live in mate.
you think this is about you. If you're not a rapist piece of trash, then you're mistaken. But the world is full of people who put women in fear of their safety, it's real, and your derision of it is sad.
Just because women can be rapists, and indeed, there are women who are rapists, does not and should not have any bearing on the point.
This is the same as yelling "all lives matter" into a crowd of BLM protestors. Yeah, no shit. Just because one thing is true doesn't mean that the inverse is impossible.
but but whataboutism at it's finest. great job mate. fantastic work, on behalf of all men, I'd like to ask: FUCKING STOP. Stop trying to stick up for our side because it's not helping.
There are no sides here. The fact that you think their are sides tips your bias. Every human is capable of horrible things regardless of age, race, or sex. The bear thing is so dumb and clickbait.
Well, if you lived in India, you would have had a point about walking down the street rape. However, walking down the street rape in the United States does not occur as much as you think it does.
No. But India has the worst gang rape of women walking on the street than anywhere else.https://apnews.com/article/india-sexual-violence-rape-b9016c82074c08583080db846d64055b
I'm saying all people have a rape problem. Just the link you gave where a couple raped a girl. I'm also saying America has a low walking down the street rape problem compared to India, South Africa, and Botswana.
I spend zero time worrying about being raped, I'm a cis gender white male.
But you see, there's this thing called empathy - and when women tell me they're worried, I genuinely believe them, because history shows their fears are well founded.
There is a higher chance of being mauled by a pitbull than being violently sexually assaulted on the streets of America yet there is a large portion of people that say it's not the breed, it's how they were raised.
Why aren't men talked about with similar empathy? Why don't we acknowledge there are more women pedophiles recieve lighter sentences and sometimes aren't convicted at all? Do you have empathy for these children?
I know you're happy to herring the argument in any direction to get a concession. I have empathy for lots of people, but it doesn't reduce the calculus: a woman might be harmed or killed by a bear, but the bear will never kidnap her and keep her in a cage, much less rape her.
A Red Herring argument is one that changes the subject, distracting the audience from the real issue to focus on something else where the speaker feels more comfortable and confident.
Your argument is tenuous and rambling, I'm going to block you now.
I'm pretty sure we were talking about walking down the street safety and sexual violence. Both if which are well within the boundaries of an argument. You can't just say "herring" and "rambling" and claim to make a great point.
they genuinely don't understand; they think: ah, but the bear is a much more fearsome predator than I am, the woman would choose me any day!
Nah man, the bear's never, ever, ever going to rape the woman. Woman will roll the dice with their lives, but no one wants to be kidnapped and raped to death - an actual fear women in this day and age have - and the bear will never ever 100% will not rape a woman.
clear cut logic to me, I don't fault women one bit.
I see it as simply the combination of: "the devil that you know is better than the devil that you don't", and "there are fates worse than death".
To be plain: the worst the bear can do is kill you and eat you (hopefully in that order). That's what we all know. We 100% know that and I don't think anyone is going to argue that point.
But a complete fucking stranger? They could be Hannibal for all you know. Keeping you alive by cutting off your appendages and feeding them to you.
The main culprit of this is toxic men who will send unsolicited dick pictures to unsuspecting women as an opening line, then put them on blast for not responding positively to being assaulted by penis pictures they didn't ask for.
The kind of guy that wouldn't see anything wrong with saying "you should smile more, you're so pretty when you smile".
The fact is, being a woman on the internet, you can, quite easily, get bombarded by complete strangers with all kinds of fucked up shit that sexualizes you and reduces you to an object only worthy of living if you can pleasure a man.
With the mountain of fucked up shit random dudes do to women online, I do not understand why anyone would ever be surprised that they would pick a wild fucking animal over the likely outcome of being stuck in the woods with any of the kinds of creepy fucking guys that troll around the internet, showing their dick to everyone with tits.
I'm a guy, I'm not surprised by any of this, and I don't blame anyone for saying "bear", it's honestly, a safer bet.
This topic keeps coming up because people keep talking past each other. There is a real, measured, evidence backed problem. The victims are saying “I feel this way, and it causes me to behave this way” and those who are neither victims nor perpetrators are upset about the way they are choosing to express that in a general sense. Now this meme itself is not more helpful than the bear, it didn’t give any new information. But it’s a good expression of that general frustration when no one listens. At least on Lemmy, there is a certain defensive response rather than an understanding empathetic one on this topic. This meme in particular seems harsh, but it’s driven by decades of talking about this, or not being able to talk about this, because the response is always so negative. Everything from “why did you dress that way” to “you should have know before you married them” to “not only women” (yes but that’s the topic at hand so). I would hope that some can come to understand this sentiment. I hope that this community improves.
