@be4foss@kde
As hardware progress continues to slow down, computers last longer and longer. But commerical companies don't like this, so they introduce arbitrary system requirements. Linux saves the day and you guys are running a good cause.
I'm happy I don't have to throw away my perfectly find 12 year old computer.
So, are there any plans to reduce the bloat in KDE, maybe even make a lightweight version (like LXQt) that's suitable for older PCs with limited resources?
I'm speaking relatively, in terms of an old PC with limited RAM and slow storage.
Here's an example of two identical VMs with 2GB RAM, one installed with Fedora 40 KDE, and another with Fedora 40 LXQt, both set to use X11 (because LXQt isn’t Wayland ready yet), both updated and running the latest kernel 6.8.10-300.fc40. I logged into the DEs, opened only two terminal windows and nothing else, ran, and ran htop.
Of the above, I calculated the usage of the top 10 processes specific to each respective DE, and you can see that KDE's memory usage is almost double that of LXQt. Had I counted all the DE-specific processes, it'd no doubt be a lot more than double.
I think that what you are calling "KDE" may be "Plasma", since you are comparing with another desktop environment.
To answer your question, yes, and the process started some years ago. It sounds like you may be a bit out of the loop, as Plasma now weighs more or less the same as XFCE, or thereabouts (these things are harder to measure than one may assume). I personally installed Plasma 6 on a Dell XPS PP25L from 2008 and it works flawlessly.
I'm afraid you are definitely out of the loop: Plasma is the DE. That is what it's called: Plasma, not KDE. KDE refers to the organisation, the community and all the software the community produces, which includes Plasma (the DE), but also all the apps, frameworks, widgets, etc.
I find it a bit ironic for KDE to be pushing this message, when it’s a heavy DE (relatively speaking)
You didn't seem to read my message. Allow me to repeat the gist here: Plasma (the DE) works fluidly on a machine bought in 2008 which comes with an Intel Core 2 Duo running at 1.8GHz. This machine has an onboard Intel GMA X3100 GPU and 2GB Memory. I doubt a heavy/bloated environment like you are imagining would even be able to display the log in screen on that.
I would advise you stop repeating third-hand FUD, as it is not true, and you tried the software out for yourself. I am sure you will be surprised at how light Plasma (the DE) is.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but this #OptGreen project isn't talking specifically about Plasma, is it? They don't mention Plasma anywhere on the page they linked.
In any case, that's irrelevant, also, I don't doubt that KDE can't run at all under the specs you mentioned - that's not the issue. The question is, how much free/usable RAM do you actually have on that machine - let's say with no apps open first, and with then check again with Konsole + Dolphin + KWrite/Kate open? And for fun, fire up Konqueror as well and check again.
No you are not. Or you weren't. Allow me to quote your own post:
I’m talking about the “DE” part of KDE in general;
As the DE is Plasma, that is the part I am addressing. Now you are moving the goalposts. That said, I do not know what you mean when you refer to "the KDE project", as KDE encompasses many projects.
In any case, I don’t doubt that KDE can’t run at all under the specs you mentioned
So you don't doubt it is light. Of course if we pile on a bunch of apps, like we could throw in Blender open 50 times rendering 4K animations and I'm sure it will make the laptop run slow. But that would be because of Blender, not the DE.
However, for the sake of argument, I did try the three examples you quoted, Dolphin, Konsole and Kate, and as you can see in the aforementioned video, they are all also very light and worked perfectly simultaneously on the 2008 machine. I do not have Konqueror installed on that machine, as it is not considered an essential part of Plasma anymore and is not widely used.
You're arguing semantics and that's not the point I'm trying to argue here. Forget the term "Plasma". I don't really care about what the DE is branded as or what's in "Plasma" the software package. When I say "KDE", I mean the desktop + all the basic default/recommended apps that you'd see on a typical KDE installation, such as Dolphin, Konsole, Kate, Kalculator, Spectacle etc that's part of the KDE project. IDK whether the apps I've mentioned are considered part of "Plasma" or not, but again, that's not the point, I'm saying this is what I meant when I said "KDE" - and what most people would expect when they picture a "KDE" environment.
Anyways, I tested this myself on two identical VMs with 2GB RAM, one installed with Fedora 40 KDE, and another with Fedora 40 LXQt, both set to use X11 (because LXQt isn't Wayland ready yet), both updated and running the latest kernel 6.8.10-300.fc40. I logged into the DEs, opened only two terminal windows and nothing else, ran, and ran htop. The screenshot speaks for itself:
And when I tried disabling swap on both machines, the KDE machine was practically unusable, with only 53MB RAM remaining before it completely froze on me. Meanwhile, the LXQt one was still very much usable even without swap enabled.
I'd like to see you try running without swap and see how it fares. And if you think it's unfair disabling swap on a 2GB machine - try installing LXQt yourself, disable swap and see for yourself how much more usable it is compared to KDE.
And this is why I say KDE is bloated and not suitable for old machines.
Of the above, I calculated the usage of the top 10 processes specific to each respective DE, and you can see that KDE's memory usage is almost double that of LXQt. Had I counted all the DE-specific processes, it'd no doubt be a lot more than double.
You are moving the goalpost once again. First to be light the DE (i.e. Plasma) had to be light; then the DE had to be light, but not Plasma (?), but your redefinition of DE as in Plasma, plus a random set of apps (Dolphin, Konsole and Kate -- none of which are distributed with Plasma, by the way).
As that also proved to be light, now you are basing your argument on (a) a poll (?) and (b) that there is at least one desktop that is lighter and that does not need swap.
I am perfectly willing to admit the latter, mainly because it is true: there ARE DEs lighter than Plasma. But it is a strawman argument, as admitting that does not invalidate the statement that "Plasma is light" and "KDE'S software is not bloated".
I wish you would stick to one thing and argue in good faith. You seem incapable of that so, I'm done.
I'm not moving any goalposts. You're the one arguing about the semantics around "Plasma", and I keep saying that's irrelevant.
Refer back to my original comment which was, and I quote:
So, are there any plans to reduce the bloat in KDE, maybe even make a lightweight version (like LXQt) that’s suitable for older PCs with limited resources?
To clarify, here I was:
Referring to KDE + default apps that are part of a typical KDE installation
Stating that a typical KDE installation is bloated compared to a typical lightweight DE like LXQt
Saying with the intention that the "bloat" is RELATIVE, with respect to a older PC with limited resources
The ENTIRE point of my argument was the KDE isn't really ideal RELATIVELY, for older PCs with limited resources, and I'm using LXQt here are a reference.
In a subsequent test, here's a direct apples-to-apples(ish) component comparison:
Component
Process_KDE
RAM_KDE
Process_LXQt
RAM_LXQt
WM
kwin_x11
99
openbox
18
Terminal
konsole
76
qterminal
75
File Manager
Dolphin
135
pcmanfm-qt
80
File Archiver
ark
122
Lxqt-archiver
73
Text Editor
kwrite
121
featherpad
73
Image Viewer
gwenview
129
lximage-qt
76
Document Viewer
okular
128
qpdfview-qt6
51
Total
810
446
plasmashell was sitting at 250MB btw in this instance btw.
The numbers speak for themselves - no one in their right minds would consider KDE (or plasmashell, since you want to be pedantic) to be "light", in RELATION to an older PC with limited resources - which btw, was the premise of my entire argument. Of course KDE or plasmashell might be considered "light" on a modern system, but not an old PC with 2GB RAM. Whether something is considered light or bloated is always relative, and in this instance, it's obvious to anyone that KDE/plasmashell isn't "light".
Just for my 2 cents, I installed kde on an ancient HP elitebook, and while it was a tad slow to boot from disk due to the hard drive, the daily usage was honestly totally fine, and way better than the windows 7 it came with.
You are right that KDE is very light compared to windows, or even in general.
@Bro666@d3Xt3r Ran EndeavourOS/Plasma 6 and FreeBSD/ Plasma5 on a similar specced machine (Dell Inspiron 1525 with a slightly slower CPU but upped RAM to 3GB, ssd and faster wifi ) all fine.
Firefox, libroffice, thunderbird, dolphin, kate... All ok. No gaming but retro stuff (baldursgate 1+2, scummvm, platformers), no 4K streaming, tho :)
Only thing was, No blur effects due to hw limitations of the Intel gma GPU
Toying around with OpenBSD and Plasma on that machine, now.
@d3Xt3r@Bro666 These are, in fact, good examples of how Free Software makes it possible to extend hardware operating life. Though the "Opt Green" project falls under the KDE umbrella, the driving force of the project is that the inherent virtues of FOSS make it possible to support hardware for years and even decades after official support ends. And transparency and user autonomy mean you can contribute to make KDE/FOSS even better! That is simply not possible with proprietary software.
KDE Plasma has been reported to work well on computers up 15 years old, and other FOSS projects run on devices even older than that!
At our stand in April at the Umweltfestival, we had a Dell computer from 2003. Debian with LXQt ran on it, but the BeOS-based Haiku ran even more smoothly ... and many KDE apps have been ported to Haiku. So we could demo GCompris to families with kids on a device that is 21 years old.
That is the power of transparency and user autonomy!
Really appreciate everything you and the entire #FOSS community are doing. I've used Linux for decades now, and it just keeps getting better. I recently installed Linux on a 10+ year old laptop that was barely running Win10, and it's back to totally functional, and even snappy! #KDE is of course the best DE ever :)
@be4foss@kde Computers are easy, but what about smart phones?
I'd love to keep my Android phone for longer than 3 years but even if I find a compatible ROM to flash on it, I can't use it for banking, payments, etc. → I have to buy a new phone :'(
@be4foss@kde@fsfe Thanks for the link. The info there is useful but I don't think it addresses the main issue with flashing (and thus upcycling with free SW) Android phones - it's very complicated, risky, and you forfeit the ability to use the phone for banking and such because the apps only support Android/iOS. And yes, I realize it's not within the powers of the FOSS devs to solve this; I guess they'd have to be EU/US government lol :/
Fairphone is offering a solution to this by designing devices that are repairable and have guaranteed software updates, though it requires some compromises.
because the phone is not sealed, its waterproof/dustproof rating is lower
the specs are lower than other phones in the same price range - this is probably due to the modular design and the need to assure the supply of replacement parts
the phone is only designed for the EU - it may not support the network bands used in other parts of the world
@NaibofTabr OK, this is awesome. If the company doesn't go down and holds up to what they promise, the phones are actually not pricey at all - 5 years warranty? 8 years of SW updates? Replaceable parts? All my phones went away because of SW, battery, or display glass. All that can be replaced with Fairphone. I love the concept, thanks for the link! <3
Yeah, it's a good concept and I'd like to see more options like it on the market, but it kind of runs against the current consumer electronics profit model and the way the electronics supply chain is structured.
It does seem like consumer awareness is changing, and there's more and more demand for sustainable and long-life products. Hopefully that continues. I think "vote with your wallet" applies to this sort of thing.
Because: 1) fairtrade, 2) less revenue from selling you a new device in two years once this one gets obsolete, 3) costs of long-term maintenance, 4) small volumes.
You ever compared a price of fairtrade coffee vs normal one? Yeah, x2. Why? No slave labor, no burned forests, sustainable water usage. But ofc, why would you buy it? It's double the price.
@be4foss@kde
i cant wait for the AI exit scam to finally catch up to OEMs so they finally stop producing non-repairable e-waste!! FOSS is the future !!!
Yeah, tell that to the phone companies. I have a perfectly good iPhone 6s that I can only use for the one game that still works. Apple killed that phone for everything else through lack of support. Some for my iPad Mini. My Android phones are all made with flimsy USB connectors that always break and sometimes within literally weeks. The phones are still good but killed by bad USB ports.
@floofloof Yes - if you phone has wireless charging. Most do not. My current phone has an almost totally broken USB port. I'm considering cracking it open to add wireless charging capability. Or I could just find another cheap phone.
@Bro666 The annoying thing is most phones would work really well if it wasnt for the flimsy usb and the spyware. Most phones are truly bogged down with it, straight from the Chinese manufacturer
@be4foss@kde Hi, I am a bit curious. It is called "KDE Eco", so I assume KDE software is trying to cooperate with KDE Eco, but are there any notable programs or any that are trying to stay in touch/cooperate with KDE Eco outside of KDE? Like trying to improve on sustainability etc. together?
@MageInBlack@kde Some background: KDE Eco has funded projects supported by the KDE e.V. and community. The name is derived from the website eco.kde.org, originally created for the FOSS-oriented project "Blauer Engel For FOSS" (BE4FOSS). Since 2021 we've been in contact with many FOSS projects/communities as well as people working on measuring software's energy consumption, digital sustainability, etc. Much is still work in progress and as newsworthy things happen we make sure to post about it.