Why are neurotypicals in charge of making up the social rules? They're not even very good at it.

Edit: A few people have interpreted the title as serious, so I wanna clarify that it was meant as a sarcastic joke about how little sense the neurotypical world makes to me, but it is still legitimately me asking for help understanding said neurotypical world.

Was having a conversation with a friend today about why I seem unapproachable to people online. Apparently it's for 2 reasons.

One is that I say "K." all the time, as a short way of saying okay. She pointed out that most people find this rude and offensive. This kinda baffled me, because like why? She explained that like, if somebody were to give a long emotional speech and I just responded "K." that would be offensive. That confounds me. So it's rude in one context, and neurotypicals have decided to be offended by it in all contexts? But the reason it's rude is what confuses me more. Apparently it's considered lazy because you could have just typed out the word, but like, that applies to all text speech and nobody's mad about people shortening those words.

But it got more confusing when she explained the second reason, which is that I end all of my sentences with proper punctuation, which she said "makes people feel like I'm done with the conversation and not interested." But just a second ago improper grammar was rude, and now proper grammar is rude instead.

It baffles me. You can't just use proper or improper grammar. Use too much improper grammar and you're lazy and rude. Use too little and you're also rude. But you can't just use any improper grammar, you have to use the very specific subset of improper grammar that's been deemed acceptable and not lazy (even though it's exactly as lazy as what they do consider lazy.)

To be clear, I'm not bitter, and I'm definitely gonna adjust my behavior to hopefully seem a little less rude to people. I think that's just a nice thing to do. I just find the neurotypical mind utterly fascinating. I don't think they even realize how many contradictions exist in the social rules they all so easily accept.

IsThisAnAI ,

You should ignore every single one of those people bitching about punctuation.

Webster ,

Communication is a two way street. It's both about the message the sender is trying to convey, but also the way the receiver interprets it. As a (mostly) neurotypical thinker, this is even hard for many of us to get right.

An example for clarity is the response your getting in the comments to your friends comments. Various people are disagreeing and agreeing to different levels. Conversation is navigating the complicated dynamics to as the sender, sending your message in a way the receiver will get the impression you are trying to give, and as a receiver, trying to understand the intent of the message the sender is trying to show.

There aren't many hard or fast rules. In different online communities, different styles and patterns can conotate different things. There are patterns and styles I use here on Lemmy for example, I would never use in a sports online community because they would be interpreted differently there.

My advice is don't beat yourself up about it. If you're not getting the type of interactions you're expecting in a particular community, that might be the time to ask for feedback or see if your communication style is different than the local group there. But the ephemeral nature of these online conversations make it the perfect place to experiment and find a communication style that works for you and gets the response from others you are looking for.

glimse ,

I have pretty much the same comment as anyone else here (punctuation is fine, "K" is less fine) so I won't repeat it but it reminds me of this sketch. People can't read your inflection over texts...especially when it's a one letter answer.

Imagine a parent saying "clean your room" and a passive aggressive teenager saying "K." - that's how it can be interpreted in some contexts.

IsThisAnAI ,

The punctuation is total bullshit. 100% ignore them. Typing just K definitely is a bit informal for all but the most casual conversations with close relationships. I will 100% drop an👌👍 online when I encounter someone who just wants to argue or be mean to piss them off. Nothing enrages a gen z troll like 👌👍.

Sombyr OP ,
@Sombyr@lemmy.zip avatar

The punctuation thing has actually been pointed out to me on a couple occasions before. One of my exs thought it was weird and said it "gave the impression I'd be mad if other people's grammar wasn't perfect." So apparently it does bother some people, but it's probably more of a straw that broke the camel's back situation, where I already speak so formally in the first place that it makes me look stuck up.

magic_lobster_party ,

K can give the impression that you don’t care and don’t want to be bothered with it. The effort in your response is expected to be proportional to the effort it took to write the message to you.

If someone write a long personal message to you, and all you responds is K, then it gives the impression that you might not even read the message. Why even bother next time?

Proper grammar in informal settings is a difficult one, but this is my theory:

It might give the impression of mismatch in vibes. There’s a difference in informal speak and formal speak, and participants in a conversation are expected to be in the same wavelength. An extreme example, but it’s like when everybody is dressed casually at a social gathering, but you decide to show up in a three piece suit.

BaroqueInMind ,

Your friend sounds impressively tedious.

Sombyr OP , (edited )
@Sombyr@lemmy.zip avatar

It's unfortunate I gave that impression, because she's probably the nicest, most accepting person I know, even including other autistics. She was just trying to let me know because I've experienced significant psychological distress from my inability to connect to other people, so she's trying to help me understand why, which was a recommendation by a psychiatrist I saw.

BaroqueInMind ,

You are attempting too hard to be a part of a group of friends who do not consider you one, and are likely willing to drop you for the smallest reason that is socially agreed amongst them.

I've been replying to group texts like that for decades and my friends do not give a fuck. You should resume replying like how your friend is telling you puts people off and see who your real friends are.

Risk ,

That seems like a big reaching conclusion based on very little data.

Friendship goes both ways and requires equal effort from both parties to make it work. Being rigid and unadapatable is a great way to whittle away your friends unnecessarily.

BaroqueInMind ,

If people are affected by the simple reply of "K" by OP, something more fundamental is wrong with the relationship than adaptability.

Sombyr OP ,
@Sombyr@lemmy.zip avatar

Actually I'm fairly popular, but that just leads to me catching a lot of attention from strangers who's first interaction with me, not knowing I'm autistic, is seeing somebody rude and dismissive.
If I could just explain to everybody immediately "hey, I'm autistic, I'm not being rude on purpose," that'd be great. But most of my interactions with people are short messages like "What outfit are you wearing on your character" or a quick invitation to join them for something. Not a lot of opportunities to explain to them why I act the way I do.
When I do get the opportunity is usually when I end up making real friends, because they don't see me as the dismissive girl who doesn't want to talk to them anymore, but instead the autistic girl who just interacts a little differently.
Hell, some people keep trying over and over again to be my friend even when they think I am being rude and dismissive, they just don't make any progress because they've misread my mood and assume I want them to go away.

NoneOfUrBusiness ,

If it's any consolation, my just-barely-maybe neurotypical ass uses proper punctuation and I've never had any issues. If anyone asks I just say it's a thing I do.

Sombyr OP ,
@Sombyr@lemmy.zip avatar

Yeah, it seems not everyone has an issue with it. It might be more of an issue with me because I don't often convey much emotion when I speak because I don't know how, so I probably sound dead an uninterested when I combine that with perfect punctuation. Thinking about it, I also make very sparing use of exclamation points, so maybe I just seem so dead and formal that it makes people think I'm not really into the conversation.

slurp ,

I'm with you on the punctuation. The k bit I think is about showing you are putting effort in to understand and care, so something slightly longer like "k... I understand" or some extra acknowledgement that shows you understand and have taken the time to take it in helps. Personally, I have a big thing about miscommunication, so knowing people have understood me and listened actively is huge to me. "K." does not express much of anything other than "I saw there was a message", so I'd want to push to check that I've actually been heard.

Hope that makes sense.

sab ,
@sab@kbin.social avatar

The spelling thing bothers me a lot. I don't want to catch bad habits of writing shitty just because it's whatever seems trendy at the moment.

People used to give me shit for not using smileys, so I started adding :) everywhere in text messages. Then people told me I seem passive aggressive because I use :) instead of emojis.

Joke's on them. I could never be arsed to use emojis outside of very specific contexts, and now gen Zs are making fun of them for looking like boomers with their dumb emoji use. Apparently I still come across as passive aggressive though.

Sombyr OP ,
@Sombyr@lemmy.zip avatar

I never use emojis either, except specific ones for specific contexts (I.E. the hug emoji when somebody's having a really bad day.) People have pointed it out, but unlike other things people just view it as an interesting personality quirk of mine instead of off putting.

ABCDE ,

ꓘ

lugal ,

Found the Australian

Glowstick , (edited )

Your friend is at least partially misinforming you. It's fine to write k instead of ok in almost all situations. But either of them can be rude if the other person would expect more emotive words. For example here's when k is fine:

Them: Bring my pen when you come into the other room

You: k

And here's where k is not fine:

Them: Wanna go grab some drinks tonight at 8?

You: k

That's rude. They would want to hear you actually be interested in their invitation. Like saying "great" or "I'm in" or whatever.

Sombyr OP ,
@Sombyr@lemmy.zip avatar

...Ooooh. I think that's what she was trying to tell me actually and I just completely misunderstood. That second example is a type of situation I used it a lot in. I didn't realize people needed to know how interested I was. I thought they just needed a quick confirmation.

Glowstick ,

Yay, glad I could help! Yeah essentially if they're asking something that might have an emotional aspect to it then they want to hear more than just k.

sab ,
@sab@kbin.social avatar

Often people are looking for some sort of validation, even when it's not obvious.

If they say "I can't join you in the bar today, I have too much work to catch up on", "K." is not a good answer. Several aspects needs to be addressed, ideally:

  1. That's too bad
  2. Next time
  3. Commentary on the state of work: Keep your head above water/your boss is such a jerk/we'll make up for it after your deadline on Thursday/whatever, depending on the situation and your relationship.

Basically, it's a way to show that you care about what they're telling you. It can be a bit exhausting at times.

Sombyr OP ,
@Sombyr@lemmy.zip avatar

This is really helpful. I didn't realize there were so many situations people were looking for validation. I just assumed when they said something like that it was just to quickly let me know and "K." was all they needed.

neatchee ,

To expand on this, consider that others cannot know what you're thinking without you telling them.

You might feel "I'm looking forward to that and I think we will have fun together."

But if you don't tell someone that, they are left to guess for themselves. That uncertainty is very uncomfortable.

Neurotypicals learned to give and use clues to help navigate life and determine if they need to change their actions. But it's a complicated balance. Most people don't like being told "I'm not interested in that." They'd rather hear "no thank you, maybe some other time." But they'd also much rather hear "that sounds like fun!" than hearing "yeah sure".

It can be very difficult to imagine what it's like to have a different set of information than what you yourself know. Practice this skill! It will help you in lots of situations. Do your best to reduce uncertainty while considering how it might feel to hear the new information you're sharing for the first time.

Good luck out there! <3

Sombyr OP ,
@Sombyr@lemmy.zip avatar

Ah, I think the hangup for me wasn't so much not understanding that they had different info than me, but that they wanted the info I had. Moreover, that they might feel differently about things than I did, and they knew that, so I needed to make sure they knew how I felt.
When I see somebody just respond "K." or "Alright" to an invitation to do something, that always made me happy enough to know that they were gonna be there because I figured if they didn't want to, they'd have found an excuse to say no. I didn't suspect that others might not just assume somebody was happy to be there the way I did. It's helpful to know I need to clear up how I feel in some way for them to understand that I want to be there and enjoy their company.

Glowstick ,

People can agree to go to an event but have very different feelings about doing it. Some people will be extremely stoked about going, some will be happy about it, some will be like meh its better than sitting at home, some people won't want to go but decide to anyway because they want to be nice, some may really not want to go but decide to go anyway out of a sense of obligation. The particular words you reply with express your interest level to some degree. A plain "k" will be interpreted as a meh at best.

Sombyr OP ,
@Sombyr@lemmy.zip avatar

I see. I always just determined that by their reactions once they showed up, and figured all that mattered until then was whether they had any desire to at all, which was usually conveyed easily with single word responses. I didn't realize other people wanted to know your feelings beforehand.

Glowstick ,

Ideally people want to have a general sense of how you're feeling at all times. Not like in a disruptive way of always making announcements, but through things like the particular words you choose and facial expressions and body language etc.

Sombyr OP ,
@Sombyr@lemmy.zip avatar

I can definitely adjust my words to express how I'm feeling better more often. The facial expressions and body language though I'm probably incapable of unfortunately on account of me actually having two separate disorders that make me unable to show physical expressions of emotion. Way back in middle school I was put in a special class to teach me both of those and I couldn't even figure out how to trigger the muscles in my face to actually make any expressions, nor was I even capable of recognizing the body language I was supposed to be mimicking even when it was described to me.

Glowstick ,

Huh, I've never heard of that. It must make things extra hard for you. What's the name of that disorder?

Sombyr OP ,
@Sombyr@lemmy.zip avatar

The disorder is schizoaffective, but the inability to express emotions isn't usually a big feature of it. It comes with psychosis. Usually, antipsychotics are all it takes to trigger your brain to start expressing emotions again, but I can't take a high enough dose to do that without serious side effects, so I instead deal with minor psychosis symptoms, like having to remind myself constantly that no, the order of my songs when I hit shuffle is not a secret message telling me the future, and also the fact that I can't express any physical emotions unless they're very strong. It also shows in my tone of voice, which is a consistent, flat, unchanging tone that I try to vary randomly just so people don't tune out my voice.

Glowstick ,

That sounds hard. But it seems like you've got a good understanding of yourself, and that's huge! It's clear that you've put a ton of work into all this and have achieved real accomplishments. I give you a massive virtual high five!!!

Kichae , (edited )

To make things more confusing, responding to an invitation to drinks with "k!" might be ok, depending on who's asking and the context.

If it's your roommate asking, and they're doing it because there's a sporting event or because drinks are an established ritual, it'd be fine. If it's your boss, or a new (potential) friend or colleague, a possible romantic interest, or a close friend and it's not something they usually do or invite you out for, then those situations have a lot more weight, and expect a more fulsome and engaged reply.

fishpen0 ,

[Thread, post or comment was deleted by the author]

    •
    Sombyr OP ,
    @Sombyr@lemmy.zip avatar

    That makes a lot of sense. I think I do notice patterns a lot, I just don't see the reason the pattern exists, so I can't determine if it's a rude pattern or a polite pattern. That's kinda what happened with "K." I saw people use it everywhere and went "Ah, I see, so this is how people talk now. I should do it too."

    TrickDacy ,

    k.

    Outsider9042 ,

    K

    ObviouslyNotBanana ,
    @ObviouslyNotBanana@lemmy.world avatar

    K.*

    rustyfish , (edited )
    @rustyfish@lemmy.world avatar

    Alright. That’s bullshit. Not entirely. But it’s riddled with it. The “k” part, I understand. This can be considered rude and to be honest, it’s my way of saying “whatever dude”.

    BUT that’s how I use it. I have met people who use it as a lazy but friendly way of “alright, got it”. So it depends on who uses it and what its intention is supposed to be. You either have to be incredibly nuanced or have to know the person who is using it to properly interpret it. Which your friend kinda doesn’t. I’m not blaming her. I fail at it way too often myself.

    The “ending a sentence with a period” on the other hand? My answer would have been “Are you high?!” Seriously, it doesn’t make any sense and it sounds made up.

    Edit: Thinking about this makes me even angry ffs.

    Sombyr OP ,
    @Sombyr@lemmy.zip avatar

    It baffled me too, but people have legit complained about this stuff to her and she's had to explain to them that I just talk like that. She has no expectation of me to change at all because she already understands my intentions perfectly well, but she told me simply because she felt I should know people were complaining.
    As far as the period thing, apparently it's the last sentence I'm supposed to leave punctuation off of. I don't get it tbh. I mostly talk to people in MMOs and over Discord and apparently when I add a period to the end of the last sentence it makes people feel like I'm trying to end the conversation. It makes sense to me that people think that, given that every time I did it they'd just stop talking, but why they think that is a mystery to me. She said she thinks it's because they're just not used to it.

    rustyfish ,
    @rustyfish@lemmy.world avatar

    So it seems to be some sort of linguistic peculiarity in that specific group. MMO players tend to be relatively sheltered, so it could have formed organically? This makes sense to me. It’s unlikely, but it sounds better than “let’s make shit up and fuck with him”.

    I don’t know how I would handle this. Most people I play with online are even deeper in the spectrum than I am. Do me a favour, the next time they have an conversation, just throw a single punctuation in the chat and see how they react.

    Sombyr OP ,
    @Sombyr@lemmy.zip avatar

    Maybe. I actually scrolled back through the Discord we're in and only found exactly one other person who uses proper punctuation. Scrolling through my other Discord servers though and people use proper punctuation all the time. It does seem to be a thing that may be specific to this group.
    Also coincidentally I actually did witness somebody send a message that was nothing but a single period earlier today, and the reaction was everybody briefly paused then continued on like nothing happened.
    Whether it's a localized phenomenon or a wider one, it's still weird to me.

    FrostyCaveman ,

    Single period usually means drama is happening, for some reason

  • All
  • Subscribed
  • Moderated
  • Favorites
  • ‱
  • [email protected]
  • kbinchat
  • All magazines
    •