I often describe myself as a minimal speaker. It's because whilst I can speak, unless seriously overwhelmed, I vastly prefer not to. In large part, this is because the effort of speaking, and it is, more often than not, a real effort for me, rarely seems worth it. Since realising I am autistic, I have come to realise why this could be and also why communicating on here is so much easier and not just because it's text, because I struggle with that elsewhere too.
Language, whether text or verbal, is communication. Whether that be communicating thoughts, or feelings. Expressing emotions, or ideas. It is the medium and not the source. The source is where these things are coming from and it is what shapes our use of the medium and therefore in large part the assumptions we make about how others are using it and therefore the likely success of any communication.
Enter the double-empathy theory and the general acknowledgement that autism is a fundamental difference in the ways in which our brains work, often exampled by describing it as a different operating system. It means that whilst I am using the same language to talk with allistics, how we're both using it, the ends and purpose, even the nature of the information being transmitted, can often be fundamentally different.
An example I have used, is to compare it to a foreign language speaker with a reasonable understanding of the local language, but having to work incredibly hard to keep up with a conversation and having to constantly check their translations and whether or not they were making the right replies and not offending anyone. But to be truly accurate, you would also have to add in a cultural divide, a root level difference in the expectation and assumptions they are making about life and how this was also shaping their communication.
This, I think, is why speaking has always been so hard for me. Why it's always been so much of an effort and often without point. It's not that I am speaking a foreign language, or that my words themselves can't be understood. But that the information I am attempting to convey and the intended purpose of that information, is so far out of phase with the expectations of those around me, that miscommunication, confusion and the all too familiar fallout becomes almost inevitable. It's also why speaking here is so much easier.
Effective communication is more than just using the right words, it's about realising the intent and purpose behind those words. About understanding where someone is coming from as much as what they are trying to say. And that, as the saying goes, takes two to tango.
@pathfinder@actuallyautistic I'm usually a man of few words. I often have a need to describe complex things but fail to find a concise enough way to get to the point. Unless the listener proves to be in a receptive mood I just don't even try.
Often times there's not even a complex concept to convey and I think, man there must be an idiom or something, but then I get lost in thought and the conversation has most likely moved on already.
@neversosimple@actuallyautistic
Like for a lot of things about us, our communication tends to be information rich. But that means it takes time to both formulate and express. Neither of which tends to go well with verbal communication and especially the sort of high paced, information sparse and quick changing communications favoured by allistics.
I talk a lot. Sometimes it's quite spontaneous stuff. Occasionally I end up saying the wrong thing, but usually it's OK.
HOWEVER
If I am in a situation that requires a carefully framed response, the old processing delay thing kicks in. I can't respond appropriately, verbally, in real time. I need to think it through.
I can write it down, or I can come back a few minutes later and reply verbally. Either works in the right scenario.
@pathfinder@actuallyautistic That makes a lot of sense. It's exhausting to have most conversations each day in a foreign language.
Interestingly, I've thought about ND vs NT communication as well today. In my blog post, I'm talking about empathy and how our expression of empathy is more like an unfamiliar alien species communication system than a mere human foreign language.
@Sci_Fi_FanGirl@actuallyautistic
Yes, the differences in which we use language that come not from a variation in the empathy being shown, but the way in which we express it.
@pathfinder@actuallyautistic I totally hear you on this. I suspect my dad was very similar, too. One reason I suspect I might have ADHD is I have impulses to speak when I absolutely don’t want to and have even decided on that beforehand. It can be exhausting. I really enjoy the act of listening, too. Even that needs its limits, but it’s much more sustainable for me.
@AnAutieAtUni@actuallyautistic
I also have those impulses to interrupt. But a combination of the effort involved and very ancient habit of restraint normally always me to ignore them.
@AnAutieAtUni@pathfinder@actuallyautistic "One reason I suspect I might have ADHD is I have impulses to speak when I absolutely don’t want to and have even decided on that beforehand."
Yes! This happens to me and it's caused some really bad fights with my husband. And I can understand it from his point of view, because I'll blurt out (oh god I'm actually struggling to write this because it's really embarrassing) a punchline for a joke he's busy telling.
I KNOW I shouldn't. I decide before hand I shouldn't, and in a way I think that makes it worse because my brain is going DON'T SAY THAT THING so loudly that my mouth goes "THAT THING!!!!!"
@Zumbador@pathfinder@actuallyautistic Omg yes, I know those situations! I can blurt out silly endings to what people are saying when they have taken a brief pause. I’m not as funny as my brain thinks I am… has got me into trouble too!
I also hate when I’m impulsive-chatty because it gives me no room to say the truth like “actually I’m damn exhausted and need to leave in about 30 seconds”. It makes it seem like I’m moody or just got angry etc.
@pathfinder@actuallyautistic It’s the speed of allistic communication that causes problems for me. I get very frustrated at trying to keep up with a conversation, especially when there are multiple allistic people involved. They somehow talk with each other in a flow without interrupting, and I am struggling to find a space to talk. When I do try to talk, they act like I am out of turn.
I can get very frustrated and even upset at not being able to break in with what I want to say, and then the topic changes before I can speak. So when I finally do speak, I am breaking their flow by speaking out of turn and on the wrong topic. Their frustration at me for doing this doubles the frustration I am already feeling, and conversations can get tense.
Adding to that is how often they don’t understand what I mean, and they respond in a way that shows me that I haven’t expressed myself very well.
But to not speak and express myself is also frustrating, because then they assume I agree with them when often I don’t. So I feel like I have to try to speak. The whole thing is overwhelming and frustrating.
@VeeRat@pathfinder@actuallyautisticnods. And then you get that look as though you've just stepped on their foot because you've got the timing or level of depth wrong. Or worse, because you've departed from what they clearly saw as the natural direction of the conversation...
@VeeRat@actuallyautistic
Very much so. I think that part of the reason why I'm far more likely to be a passive listener, apart from my nature, is that in fact half the time I've completely lost the plot of what everyone's going on about and so have lost interest.
For the longest time I thought I was an effective communicator, just weird because I struggle intensely with initiating ‘live’ conversations with people.
Once I get going however it is difficult to shut me up!
Asynchronous ,written comms are far & away my preferred medium, I get time to review my initial ND thoughts & amend them for a wider audience.
(He said merrily editing this response).
I knew I struggled sometimes to get my point across & I knew that sometimes I didn’t fully understand the subtleties of conversing with another. Again I just thought I was weird.
In recent years (since the Pandemic lockdowns especially) agoraphobia has been a thing for me & it struck me that it is like there is an invisible barrier that I have to break thru. The back doors to the garden are difficult, the front doors to the ‘outside’ world need some serious effort.
‘Live’ comms is much the same as trying to get out into the wider world!
When I got the ASD diagnosis report back from the consultant psychiatrist I was really surprised at the level of ‘normal’ communication I was failing to either exhibit or understand. I mean talk about wandering around with a virtual bag over my head!
Mrs S. is a MH social worker & during our discussions since starting on this journey we have spoken many times about how ND folk are ‘helped’ to comply with ‘normal’ standards. It has always struck me as grossly unfair.
Reading your thoughts today I agree, there is this element of ND folk not being able to convey successfully our thoughts / intended meaning to NT folk , but as with so many things it is the minority that have to make the changes to address this.
I feel that the world would be a happier place (for all) if the majority of NT folk realised that it does indeed take two to tango!
Not so much social anxiety as “rage at entirely preventable situations where I wear a mask to avoid worse long covid and get treated like an anxious child because NT adults cannot handle the idea of someone reaching a different conclusion”, but I also struggle with people
@MxVerda@pathfinder@actuallyautistic There are some very stupid people out there , I totally understand where you are coming from!
Long Covid is a barsteward , I share TLs with a couple of folk who suffer , not nice!
@pathfinder@actuallyautistic
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I think I found talking easy enough, but I must have been that hard on everybody else, I never realized until very late in life that no-one understood a word, I never understood them telling me so or something.
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Once I finally get it through my skull I suppose I'll shut up once in awhile too. 😈
@pathfinder@actuallyautistic
I mean, Once I finally got speaking. I was late and slow and then a wicked stuttering problem, I guess I was making up for lost time.
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It seems like I spent my early years barely verbal and in meltdown all the time but I somehow climbed out of it and I managed to control my environment and medicate myself so as to only melt down every ten years or less most of my adult life.
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Whereupon the environment escaped control and I'm back to maybe living in meltdown or burnout full time again.
@pathfinder@actuallyautistic
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at some point I had a reset and forgot all that, it's a mystery. I mean, I know I banged my head a few times.
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Being called by something like Imposter Syndrome about myself and the "family secret," I've been going on about, like how did I never figure it out for myself?
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And the bloody answer is the Autistic naivete, I just assumed someone would have known that and told me, why would be on a quest to learn what was known already, what would have to be known already by dear old Mom?
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😈 ❤️
@punishmenthurts@actuallyautistic
I certainly wouldn't call you naive. You simply did what we would all do, given the fact that we tend to be rational and honest, and assumed that the information would have been presented to you when the time was right. Reasons for concealing it, especially reasons that aren't about you, just isn't something that we would have occurred to any of us.
@n69n@pathfinder@actuallyautistic
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I am just so not true, on the theory that nothing that is true is true, only what is PROBABLY true is true.
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I can't quite believe my own biography..
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You referring to the variety or the commonness of the experience? 😇
@pathfinder I have lived in Tahiti. People there tend to express their view without words, and I've embrassed it. Thing is, in metropolitan France, no one gets my gestures. For example, to express approval, I just raise my eyebrows. In Tahiti, it works. @actuallyautistic
@ScriptFanix@actuallyautistic
Classic example of the perception of the medium changing the meant meaning. To be honest, raised eyebrows in the UK normally means surprise or astonishment.
I’ve always been a talker, because of my deep need to question, explore & discuss. At primary school my social skills were poor, but I loved classroom discussions about “interesting” topics & deep & meaningful with my few friends, & of course, adults. And that never stopped.
I remember being approached by a 10yo when on yard duty one day, who proceeded to explain to me how refrigeration works. I was fascinated, not by refrigeration, but by his interest. When I mentioned it in the staff room, colleagues “empathised” with me for being caught by him. I felt saddened by their response. Now I know why!
@Susan60@actuallyautistic
I can enjoy a good factual exchange and would love listening to a kid enthusing like that. But, generally I'm far more likely to be the listener, than the speaker.
I always have lots of questions, need to clarify, to understand how & why… I was about to say that I probably drove my parents nuts, but I think my mother loved it, when it happened at suitable times.