Here's something that causes friction between me and my family.
Someone asks me to make a decision about something I don't have a strong preference, but they want me to have a preference.
"do you want x or y? "
Saying "I don't care" comes across as rude, and even softening it as "I don't really have a preference" or turning it back to them by saying "what do you think?" isn't appreciated. They want me to care.
I understand that they want me to choose so they don't have to do that emotional labour. That's fair. But often when I do choose (at random), they try to change my mind, and then I'm back to square one because I don't really care, and I don't want to lie!
A honest answer would be "I'm depressed, I don't want to exist. Putting on a polite face is taking up all my effort, expecting me to actually care is beyond my capacity"
But that's too heavy for most interactions.
I'm not sure what I'm asking for here, just writing it out.
@actuallyautistic
Continuing my question about negotiations with family, since I got such useful answers.
(Ironically given my earlier post about ask vs guess culture, I think this is a guess culture thing)
This is a pattern I see in my family. This is not a Neurotypical vs Neurodivergent thing since everyone is some version of ND.
1 - Everyone avoids saying what they want directly, because they don't want to override what everyone else wants.
2 - Everyone knows everyone else is doing 1. So they don't believe what people are saying, they think there's a hidden level of "what you really think" and that their guess about this is accurate.
3 - People get annoyed with one another for either stating, or appearing to have needs, either real or assumed. They feel they can't say no, and everyone should avoid placing them in a position of being forced into saying no (because saying no is selfish!), or forced into saying yes (because they want to say no!)
@Zumbador@actuallyautistic This is exactly how conversations work in the family of my husband. This was very difficult for me at the beginning of our relationship, because in my family we just said yes/no or "I'd like to eat the rest of the salad" and everyone meant what they said.
there are some interesting passages about people who live in this culture but are from a different background. How they’re culturally “bilingual” and can almost switch personalities but being fluent in both they know both are sort of a game.
It’s such a great book, like a manual for the hidden rules and assumptions within the English culture that are usually taken for granted, and I truly wish she’d write one for all the other countries 🙂
The word limit got to me so I didn't include the question: Is it possible to have respectful and kind interactions when one party is behaving like this and the other is trying to step out of this behaviour?
I know the answer is some version of "you can't control what others do or feel, try to control only that which is yours to control, your own actions"
But is it possible to be kind when breaking this unspoken contract without acknowledging its existence?
Because acknowledging its existence seems to be the greatest taboo of them all.
@Zumbador
"I want/or don't want to do X, because I don't have the necessary headspace for it/they both/all seem good to me.", where X can include making a choice.
If it is the obligation on someone that you're trying to avoid, maybe "feel free to not do <obligation> if you don't want to do it".
I know someone who takes on a stance of obstinate forthrightness as a response, because guess culture folks eventually internalise "they're just like that" and stop feeling hurt @actuallyautistic
That all sounds horribly exhausting. I’m starting to think that undiagnosed unconscious maskers are possibly often a big part of our communication issues. And I was one until recently. 😩
Absolutely. Take high masking, add some trauma, mix in a little bit (it's never a little bit) of Autistic preserveration and boom, you have a communication problem.
@Zumbador@actuallyautistic Those three rules are eerily familiar. Not surprisingly so is the impossibility of making group decisions.
In that part of the family, if I have the energy I try to qualify my lack of preference with a reason: X might be fun, but relative Y has to get up early tomorrow morning; Z sounds interesting, but relative A isn't a big fan of crowds. At times, it starts actual conversations where relative Y is honest about their scheduling needs and relative A can express an honest opinion about whether it's a good time for being in a crowd. It fails sometimes, too, and people get defensive.
I just remembered doing this in an organization meeting once and it basically caused the person who really wanted X to get indignant and become demanding, so there's that, too.
@Zumbador@actuallyautistic sorry if this is irrelevant- have you tried having a "meta" conversation (a conversation about how you talk)?
When I explained to my family that certain things they were doing were hard on me and made me uncomfortable or anxious, it seemed to motivate them to try different approaches. Better yet is when we can problem solve together.
Something like "hey is it a good time to talk to you about something bothering me?" If they consent, "remember when this Specific Situation came up, like it did earlier today? Im sure you didnt have bad intent, but i thought you should know that this kind of situation makes me really uncomfortable/anxious/etc because of This Reason. I don't want to be and I'm sure you don't want me to be either... So I'm thinking Proposed Solution would help, but maybe you have another idea?"
I did this about a super controversial topic with my mom and I was shocked it went well. Seemed to help that I believed in her (to some extent lol)
@james@actuallyautistic I have had some success with Meta conversations like this with my husband - and I find it works best if I can find a time when we're both calm and not in the middle of a conflict or misunderstanding.
But that's based on decades of working through stuff together and knowing that if things blow up, we can come back together again so I feel safe with him.
But this is not the case with the rest of the family. And crucially, I think, they're his family so I think this is his conversation to have, not mine.
I hadn't really thought about that before so that was a useful question to ask myself, thanks.
@Zumbador@actuallyautistic I totally see this same situation happen a lot, largely with people who struggle with RSD and I don't have an answer but it infuriates me!
@actuallyautistic@Zumbador Often, they don't want you to choose, they just want to know your opinion about the options. This is why they try to change your choice afterwards. They want a discussion and find out what is the best common choice for the both of you.
Possibly, they are not 100% nice and there is a bit of a power struggle as well, but not necessarily.
In any case, the trick is to realize that they don't want you to choose, they want a discussion. (1/2)
chose one option and give an external reason for it: e.g. "I chose pizza over pasta, because I had pasta yesterday". (I helps if you have a small list of bogus reasons prepared in advance: the weather, the price, what you did before, etc)
2: when they come back with the other choice, ask them why their choice.
3: randomly accept their choice, saying you understand or insist a bit on yours (2/2)
And now that I consider it, I think some of my frustration is from the sense that they don't just want a discussion, they want a conversation that seems to be a discussion but is actually reassurance about their choice.
And now that I've reframed "agreement" as "reassurance" that helps me decide how to respond. In some cases, reassurance is appropriate and needed, but sometimes it's counterproductive and a sign that there's anxiety that needs to be addressed in some other way
@Zumbador@actuallyautistic Well... you lost me at the implied difference between "conversation" and "discussion" here.
But yes: possibly, some want to be reassured about their choice. Others, as I said, are not honest and want a conflict they can win. Most, I think, simply want something like "common talk and we will get some empathic feeling about where everyone stands".
(1/2)
@Zumbador@actuallyautistic Since you wrote you are autistic, the "empathic feeling" is probably hard for you. But you can simply fake it by asking questions. It is not very difficult once you recognize what the process is about. (2/2)
@nellie_m@actuallyautistic@Zumbador Now that is interesting, but I don't have the time for a full discussion right now.
I don't know whether autistic people experience empathy just as I don't know whether non-autistic people experience empathy.
But I do know that they differ in their behavior or they would not be recognized as different by psychologists. (1/2)
@Zumbador@nellie_m@actuallyautistic The specific difference is what I was discussing here. In a group setting, some people will talk together and, from the common talk, experience some positive emotions of "group togetherness". There are some cultural differences, but it seems to be relatively common accros cultures.
Some people will find this task difficult. This is considered an autistic trait, I think. (2/2)
@Zumbador@actuallyautistic I usually phrase it as ‘happy either way’ or ‘both of those sound good to me’, which mean the same thing but are less likely to be taken as a criticism.
@Zumbador@actuallyautistic My operating theory is that you can't just tell allistics some information, but you also have to tell them how they should feel about it. Them offering you a chance to decide can be seen as a gesture of showing they care about what you want. If you don't engage with the decision, they can feel you don't appreciate that or that you don't care what they want. When they ask you to make that kind of choice, it's hardly ever just about that choice. When you push the choice back at them, they may take it as a rejection of their feelings or that you don't care about them.
One way I have handled this in various groups was to make common choices into a game with simple rules. Choosing a place to eat was easy: you have to suggest a place to start things off, and to reject an idea you have to provide an alternate suggestion. You could also just pass and accept the group's decision. The particular rules of that little game don't matter as much as that we had a standard way to work that out with minimal confusion or frustration.
The Double Empathy Problem cuts both ways. It shouldn't always be on us to adapt to allistic communication norms. But it's hard to get allistics to even realize that's a thing, let alone do the work to meet us halfway. So if you make it a standard ritual interaction, everyone knows how to meet in the middle and no one gets confused and allistics don't have to work too hard either.
@Zumbador that sequence of behaviors makes me wonder if they aren't looking for your opinion per se but your participation in a discussion about it. some people seem to believe that a joint/group preference ought to be reached by discussion, with each participant arguing for their preferred option and persuading each other. saying you don't care or choosing arbitrarily is not cooperating with this process, so the person might find it frustrating.
Sometimes I’ll say “I don’t mind which. You choose.” And that can cause a problem for another person, depending on who they are. I think I’ve figured out why, though, for one person: they are so worried about picking the “wrong” thing themselves. They are actually a heavy masker and people-pleaser, both of which are about doing what others would prefer they do. So to make them choose for me is a VERY scary proposition. There is never enough reassurance that I could give them that could help them past that. On the outside it could look like a battle of “no, you choose! I don’t mind!” To each other. This person cannot tell me that they cannot choose, because that is too scary for them and would also be perceived as “wrong” for them, but I am trying to encourage them to do that and feel safe saying it… BUT it isn’t actually that they “don’t mind”. I’m not sure they even know what they want when they’re around anyone human being…
When I’m on the other side, I am either:
Genuinely cannot choose. My mind is in paralysis between choices and I need help. If I recognise this is the case then I’ll state it plainly, so it’s a request for help, not asking for someone’s preferences. But I might not realise, especially if I’ve got brain fog. This usually happens when I’m making trivial decisions.
Or I could be like the person I mentioned above and terrified of making the “wrong” choice for someone else. Especially because I might choose something that they didn’t realise was part of the options… a very ‘divergent’ choice, that could surprise them and cause problems for us both.
What usually causes the friction in my house is when I have a strong preference against something, but can't articulate a reason why. I'm just not up for it right now. Maybe tomorrow, maybe next week, but not right now.
@Zumbador@ScottSoCal@actuallyautistic it's not a popular sentence for me as parent when what my children don't want is things like, say, to eat (ever again). Yesterday's theme as it were... I don't quite know how to properly articulate to them fully why sometimes its a true sentence, but we have to do the things anyway. Other times, yeah, ok, let's not do it.
There is another half to this that I've never seen/heard articulated eloquently in context.
NOT ADVICE: Way back, I used to take a coin from my pocket, toss it and then pick one. It stopped my getting asked in no time and occasionally started a lively discussion about not having a preference. But I didn’t notice at the time whether it also drove people away.
Today, I suggest to people facing a decision to choose A and live with the decision for an hour or two. Then choose B and live with it for a while. Your feelings during the experiment are the answer.
@Zumbador@actuallyautistic doesn’t always apply, but another angle is stating a fact about one option. So if asked do you want to eat A or B? Attempt to discuss like I had A a few days ago but B isn’t very healthy. can also be followed with a question like we haven’t had B in a while, maybe we should try it?
Also, simply throwing in some simple reasoning as to a randomly chosen option can help. Eg. “let’s go with B, we haven’t in a while. Are you up for giving it a try?”
My approach for this too-common situation is to start off with "either one is fine for me" or something similar, and if this isn't acceptable for the requestor to list the pros and cons I see in each option.
"I like this one because of A and B, but it also X and Y which aren't ideal because of Z. The other one is good because of J and K, but it also W and X. Either one will work - which do you prefer?"
For people I trust (and it's usually only these people for whom I'll put in the effort) this usually gets the conversation going in a more positive direction. Me sharing my personal pros and cons often helps them articulate their own, and that can help them make up their own damned mind.
I decided that, when two people don't have a strong preference, the best solution is for one of them to have a preference.
So for example, my wife might say, "What are you in the mood for for dinner?" which is almost guaranteed to start an "I don't care" bidding war. So, instead of fully committing I"ll toss a few options, and I'll try to rank preferences.
"We had chicken last night, so I'd prefer not that. Steaks sound good. Or maybe hamburgers. Do any of those sound good to you?"
And we can usually narrow it down that way. I've found that, sometimes, actually, I DO have a preference...and I wouldn't have bothered to check with myself otherwise.
@roknrol@Zumbador@actuallyautistic I'm so accustomed to trying to please people and not cause too much inconvenience that, in my case, 'I don't mind' = 'whatever's easier for you'.
When I was 10 or 11, my friend's dad asked me if I wanted potatoes or chips for dinner and I was like 'whichever you'd prefer to cook', and it was only when he pressed me on it that I felt okay to say I wanted chips more.
@alicemcalicepants@Zumbador@actuallyautistic My wife is also on the spectrum and it took a good number of conversations between us before she informed me that she wouldn't ask if she had a strong preference. That was what prompted me to start having an opinion.
I probably slide more to the "emotionless" side of the spectrum, so I suppose that might be a factor.
As I've gotten older I've found that most people really don't seem to have a preference for most things, other than that they don't want to be the one to make the decision. If I really am on the fence I'll say so, but anyone that's been around me for any length of time knows that I don't keep my opinions to myself.
I can speculate a lot. Between getting burned out at my job and the heart disease, levels of stress for the last few years have really pushed me beyond my "give a fuck" limit. For me the "debate" is just way more energy than I ever feel like investing...I'll toss my opinion out there and if I get pushback...well...ok, we'll do you're thing because I really don't care.
Yes that's definitely a thing. It can happen on both sides of the conversation, with no one wanting to commit in case the other person is just being polite, and/or actually would prefer you to guess what they want.
The average life expectancy for her breed is less than ten years, and she lived to be fourteen and a bit, so I’m really very grateful for that. All good. My dogs live on in my heart and that’s something I can’t ever lose 💛
@Zumbador@actuallyautistic
These days I'll generally say something like "x, but I'd be happy with either if you have a strong preference". Which works fine with my current partner but would have been disastrous with my ex, so ymmv.
@Zumbador@actuallyautistic
Yeah, that type of thing sucks. Honestly when forced into decision-making by people who care more than I do, I usually suggest one thing, and if people start arguing with me then I assume they probably want the other but are too "polite" to just say what they want.
Not 100% foolproof, but sometimes you have to "trick" people into admitting what they actually want because they won't just say it outright.
@artemis@Zumbador@actuallyautistic I’ve noticed that if I go “it sounds like that’s what you want so that’s fine” they immediately backpedal, but are STILL upset if you then don’t change your mind!
Are they looking for “that’s a good point, let’s do that”? But then half the time they ALSO don’t want the other option-!
@WhiteCatTamer@Zumbador@actuallyautistic
Yeah, this is what definitely lowers the success rate of this strategy. It CAN work, but sometimes people just seem committed to being inscrutable.