Um, but actual Irish-Americans love eating corned beef and cabbage on St. Patrick's day. It's racist to celebrate your heritage? Or just to try things from other people's cultures?
Nah, go bugger lol. One side of my family is mostly from potato famine Irish, and we all love some corned beef. It's definitely on the menu for holidays
Others have given you solid answers on why the chicken and watermelon thing was really stupid so I'll try to answer from the Irish perspective on the second part of your question:
You can serve me corned beef and cabbage on St. Patrick's day as long as you're not being a dick about it. I'd probably consider it a nice effort actually if I happened to be abroad on the day.
My dad used to love corned beef, cabbage and potatoes with parsley sauce. It's a grand meal but not my thing.
If you were a unionist who served it to me in a leprechaun outfit I'd be inclined to tell you where to go though.
Edit: I hope this answers your question. It's a good question and the answer is nuanced so if I can offer you more perspective let me know, I'd be happy to help.
Years and years ago at a house party, some woman from Cork and a friend of mine from Belfast were joking and they said, “Because Ulster says”, and I had no idea what they were talking about.
The lad in the picture is Ian Paisley. He was a prominent unionist back in the day. (Unionist being someone in favour of maintaining the six counties in Northern Ireland being part of the UK)
From the wiki page:
Ulster Says No was the name and slogan of a unionist mass protest campaign against the provisions of the 1985 Anglo-Irish Agreement which gave the government of the Republic of Ireland an advisory role in the governance of Northern Ireland.
Irish-Americans found an affinity for corned beef as they finally had access to meat and especially beef. They initially lived in and near Jewish neighborhoods, so, it became popular to boil up corned beef, cabbage, and root vegetables.
I believe Americans serve it on Paddy's day and / or is seen as a stereotypically Irish meal over there. I do recall being asked over there if I ate it regularly.
As I said in another comment there my oul boy did actually really like it as a meal but I think it's more a misunderstanding though it does have some weird historical roots.
Thats wild I didn't know that was a mainly Irish-American dish. My mother always makes it every St Patrick's day I think it's delicious. Don't tell me that soda bread isn't traditionally Irish either??
I think it's not really a holiday for sharing culture. I don't know, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. Adopting black traditions is a touchy topic in the US. Some encourage it, and others decry it as appropriation. Considering that its a holiday commemorating the end of owning black people, I can see how 'appropriating' a tradition on that day might be found distasteful.
That said I personally think the concept or cultural appropriation is nonsense. You do not own your culture. That is for everyone. What you own is your own experiences. Those are yours and no one else's.
I think that is especially true in the United States where sharing cultures is so central to the nation's identity. I think it really comes down to intent. As long as you aren't doing something in a mocking or condescending way, I don't think any reasonable person would be offended.
I know this is a little different due to the power dynamic (America being a powerful country) but people around the world love wearing random American stuff like baseball jerseys or whatever. Saw a lot of it in Europe. Probably theres no profound reason behind it, they just like the style. I think it's cool, I'm not mad that they don't really know who the Texas Rangers are or whatever.
Probably a lot of black families actually do have fried chicken, barbeque and cookouts are apparently a big part of the festivities traditionally.
If you find yourself becoming such good friends with a black person that they actually invite you to one of these cookouts, don't bring fried chicken, or watermelons, or most of the stereotypical "black" foods, they're considered black people food because the post civil war south fostered an environment of chronic black poverty on purpose that led to black families tending towards raising cheaper animals and growing cheaper crops for their own consumption.
So a white guy cracking watermelon or fried chicken jokes or bringing that kind of stuff to a black celebration comes across less as trying to share in the culture and more as rubbing salt in a, in many ways still open, wound.
As for what you should bring, bro just ask. Just making it known ya want to bring something for folks to enjoy will be good and appreciated, and if they decide they'd like to take you up on that, they'll either give you a recipe off their list of stuff they've decided they want or ask what you think you can handle making and take your word on that if anything you feel confident making sounds good. Who knows, maybe that year will go down as the year that corned beef ya mentioned becomes a staple of the annual cookout!
You build up knowledge over time by paying attention to how the culture that it is tied to responds, since most racist stuff doesn't make logical sense.
For an example of it being complicated, the Florida Seminoles college football team is fine because the school has coordinated with the tribe. I don't know of any other professional or college sports team that does so, and any that don't are exploiting Native American culture and most likely using racist stereotypes as part of their team 'spirit'.
I'm a white Christian man in Texas. I know I'm privileged and that that privilege often comes with ignorance, so I used to be really nervous about offending people inadvertently.
But I eventually learned to just ask if I wasn't sure.
It did help that one of my best friends in college was a black lesbian who transitioned Jr year. I joked with him that he was my token "X" friend.
seeing as how ethnicity and geographic origin of the american slaves were purposefully destroyed and lost, to cut them off from their history by design, their created culture will need to suffice
Scottish/Irish brought the method over, and when slaves made it, they used African flavoring techniques. Which also caught on with hillbillies.
That led to hillbillies and slaves being the ones that popularized it.
And they were the two most looked down on ethnic groups in America for a long time. Especially because they were eating it because it was cheap. The lard and frying was to increase the calorie count, because there wasn't much to go around. Same with the heat, it made you eat the (relatively cheap, but still expensive) part slowly.
The big difference is authentic fried chicken, and instead being handed a watered down version of it.
Watermelon and chicken were two of the ways that black people started supporting themselves after being freed from slavery. They were agricultural products they could raise with very little investment and start building wealth from essentially nothing. Racists, not wanting them to prosper, mocked them for their preference for these things, but it's important to note that the mockery didn't stop them from supporting themselves with the foods they were able to produce. To this day black people enjoy these foods, and there's nothing wrong with them enjoying the foods. If you're with your black family, and you want to celebrate your own heritage, this isn't actually a bad way to do it.
However.
When a corporation, particularly a corporation run and staffed by white people, makes a choice to celebrate a significant black cultural date by presenting people with foods that white people used to mock black people, it reads as mockery. (This is especially true in North Carolina, a place where racism is rampant and open.) At best, this is tone deaf; someone along the way should have said "hey, do you think any black people will feel like you're doing this as a racist attack?" And if any one of them had answered "yes" to that question, they wouldn't have done it. It made it through the pipeline to being something they actually did because nobody in the decision chain cares about the racist overtones of what they were doing.
If you're going to do anything to celebrate black history or black culture, failing to ask any black people what they think about it is racism. Cultural sensitivity would have meant getting some input from a few black folks about how they think it should be celebrated--and, had they done that, they would have avoided this mess.
And, just in case anyone was wondering, the VP in charge of this situation is white.
If I recall correctly, some states even had laws against black people raising animals like cows (and maybe pigs too?), so chickens were their only option.
Spectrum. I think they're mainly an ISP, cable TV, stuff like that. We don't have them around here but I understand them to be a fairly big company.
This one doesn't fall on the whole company, mainly just this one call center, but still, Spectrum corporate should get interested in how this happened.
Ah, but here's the real hypocrisy: they absolutely do eat those foods. Southerners of any color love fried chicken and watermelon. That doesn't stop them from being racist about it. Racism doesn't have to make sense.
Every time this comes up I gotta say, who the fuck doesn’t like fried chicken and watermelon?! It’s like making fun of someone for liking sunshine and the ability to breathe. Not that I needed another reason to point at racists and call them a bunch of fucked up morons, but goddamn they are bunch of fucked up morons.
I like watermelon for the first 1.2 seconds where it actually has flavor. Though I did see a picture floating around Lemmy here that made me think the watermelons I've had that gave me that opinion were probably a quantity vs quality issue.
Thats why you just gotta keep eating more. More flavor! Also yes some definitely have more flavor than others, I’m no good at picking them but if you cut it open and it’s deep red you’re probably in for a good tome.
My mom eats it with salt. It’s actually not bad, I enjoy it either way. The salt does give it an interesting flavor, so maybe try that if it might enable you to like it more.
Melon with something savory is a widely popular choice. See: honeydew with prosciutto/parma ham and cantaloupe/honeydew with tajin (Mexican mix of savory spices.)
It’s like making fun of someone for liking sunshine
At the risk of completely derailing the conversation, I've met a lot of people in the PNW who don't like warm weather or sunshine. When summer rolls around they start complaining about it being too sunny and want the grey skies back. Frickin weirdos!
I'm too pale AF to have a loving relationship with the sun. I've been burned too many times. I always use protection, but last weekend the sunscreen failed me :(
I mean, climate change being what it is, I'm literally brainstorming ways to inject artificial rain clouds into the sky.
My current idea is giant poles all over the city. They have blades at the top. They start rotating like a helicopter, but not designed to takeoff. Instead, it sprays cool mist above the blades so the cool mist gets swirled around in the hot air, that makes the whole city artificially humid. Eventually this should all rise up, and create rain clouds! Which then cool down the entire city.
Edit: Also, I have zero idea if this conceptually is even feasible.
Haha. Dubai had success with cloud seeding recently. But they forgot that they're a desert without adequate drainage or runoff, and flooded their whole city.
Well, shit! Pass that technology over here! We could test it in Nevada, on a daily basis for 10 years. Maybe raining over a section of desert that has literally zero life can turn it into a livable habitat. It could be a test. With the added benefit of cooling a portion of the earth as they do it.
The sun is actively trying to kill me, you're the weirdo in this situation! I have freckles in places that have never seen sunshine by just EXISTING for a few days in Oklahoma!!
PNW weirdo here. I like things to be green and alive, I like my skin unburned, and I like being able to poke around tide pools on a lonely beach. Clouds and rain help all of that.
It's currently sunny and about 77°F, which is about as warm as I want it unless I'm going swimming. Late summer when it approaches 100° is miserable, but for now the bright weather is fine and good for the plants.
It's so beautiful today! I'm wearing shorts and flip flops for the first time in months, and I started working on my bike again now that we may have a period without rain for a while.
Came here to say that. Barring a few contrarians, EVERYONE likes both watermelon and fried chicken. I know vegetarians who will admit that fried chicken tastes fantastic, even if they no longer eat it.
I also wanted to link to some info about the "Coon Chicken Inn" chain -- founded by a white guy, of course.
Not that I needed another reason to point at racists and call them a bunch of fucked up morons, but goddamn they are bunch of fucked up morons.
People are literally killing people who's ancestors adapted to more exposure to direct sunlight than theirs did. I can't not see it in just that simple way and think "what the actual fuck is wrong with people?" You can't even say it's a culture thing they don't like, because they don't actually know the people they cast hate at other than the color of their skin. It's absolute insanity.
Dave Chapelle had a whole bit about this before he decided to double (and triple, and quadruple) down on transphobia. He makes the very salient point that these things are delicious.
I dont know a single person who has said they hated fried chicken or watermelon. Watermelon isn't my favorite because it's never as sweet as I think it is going to be but I will never turn a cold slice down.
I hate watermelon. Even the best, most ripe watermelon sucks. But usually they're mealy and watery in flavor. They also remind me of the taste of cucumbers, which I hate more, unless they're pickled.
I heard white racists make fun of black people for that a lot when I was younger. But we ate it when I was a kid because we were poor and that was cheap and delicious.
Well......yeah. You're going to run into racists in TEXAS!!! Jesus! That's the same place that seceded from Mexico to defend their ability to have slaves. Then seceded from the usa to defend their ability to have slaves. Then they complain about building a wall to keep Mexicans out.
If Florida didn't exist, Texas would be the king of racism in America.
I was a child of the 90s when I feel this humor was more prevalent. Until now, I always thought of it as a common stereotype, like white guys in khakis, old white women and wine, or country folk and cheap beer. Something that does poke fun of a group, but generally in a light way. Now I know there's a more significant back story. I figured it was just culturally something that developed in black communities.
Ok, everything you just said is true, and a great answer if the question is "Why is chicken and watermellon a bad food to be assosiated with February/Juneteenth?".
However, the question is "Why is it different from corned beef on St. Patricks day?" And everything you just said is ALSO true about how Americans treated the Irish upon their mass immigration to America during the 1800s. They were mocked for corned beef, potatoes, and alcohol. The Irish were assosiated with those items in Ireland for the same reasons black people were assosiated with chicken, and watermellons. It was cheap, and it fed a poor mans family. The non-poor (whites) mocked them for being poor.
So......you gave a great answer, but not for this exact question. And yes, I know the original question didn't mention potatoes or alcohol, but it also applies for the same reasons.
I'm not saying what the company did was right, I'm saying those same racist stigmas for the holiday it was compared to is equally wrong.
I think a better answer is "It's not so different. Both are wrong."
I mean, OP replied to my answer and apparently liked it, so I think I got him squared. But here's a real response:
When the concept of whiteness was invented (yes, invented) it didn't originally include Irish people, and they did endure abuse and marginalization comparable to what black people have endured and continued to endure. Irish people were worked as near slaves, so they even have a lot of that in common. As you say, I think that if you were Irish in America in the early 19th century, people who already belonged to the White club would have mocked you for your corned beef. We still make fun of Irish people for these things.
But there is a difference. Irish people in modern times got access to whiteness. They were accepted as part of the in-group and no longer marginalized. When this happened, and it took decades to gradually go this direction, the mockery didn't disappear but, if you were Irish (and, in fact, I am) it would have started to feel less like someone who means you harm, and more as friendly teasing, precisely because you have access to the same power as the Germans and the British and so on who already belonged to the club.
Black people don't have that. Black people are still very much marginalized, still the victims of racism and violence and institutional exclusion. So piling the food-based racism on top of that, is going to feel a lot more painful.
It's one thing to be mocked; but to be mocked by someone else who is punching down is much worse.
An interesting aside that you probably know: corned beef and cabbage is a distinctly Irish-American tradition. The Irish were economically forced to raise cattle for corned beef for British folks. Despite raising and curing the beef, they could not afford it and subsisted on potatoes. Britain's wealth and insatiable appetite for corned beef was so immense that those who made it could not afford the price. On the other hand, the reliance on potatoes for subsistence during this period as well as its outcome is well known.
Like I'm a left leaning generic progressive white guy with a degree that includes a Sociology minor. This shit is so fascinating to me.
I don't know many black people, personally. Maybe 10 humans I know (like... Might send a social media message to because we are casual acquaintances) are black. I live in a rural area. Two are vegan, but the rest do indeed love fried chicken. We joke, I'veasked. I mean fuck, So do I. What meat eater doesn't? It's such a bizarre stereotype from the start. I believe I've heard it has to do with slaves being given the wings and appendages of chicken? But I don't know the veracity of that. Seems plausible?
Dated a lovely black woman back in my late 20s, she took me to meet her family like a month in, they were all super sweet. Dinner was fried chicken, hominy, mustard and collard greens, slaw and Mac n cheese, her grandmas fried chicken made me forget I ever cared about my grandmas fried chicken. Who the fuck doesn’t love fried chicken? Okay sure, vegans, but other than that?
And seriously I get the whole stereotype being a deep seated bunch of white people fuckery, but like, fuck that, let’s eat.
My guess is that if they had got a local Soul Food place to cater a whole spread, and the fried chicken and watermelon was part of the rest of the stuff you just mentioned, it would have gone over better. (I bet Charlotte has a bunch of places that would have done that for them). Maybe they could even have done some research and provided the context I am just learning now, in this thread.
But I think this was planned by committee, and that committee planned it all in a half hour so they could break for lunch earlier. So they got a bunch of buckets of chicken (I hope they weren't from KFC), and someone went to Publix and bought a bunch of watermelon to cut up, and they called it all good. And that committee had nobody on it that pointed out how bad this would look without better planning. (In other words, no black folks....)
well, no, the reason is commercial, chicken is one of the cheapest and easiest proteins to raise in the smallest amount of space, which works out better for those of lesser means. everybody loves fried chicken, sure, but it's not the reason it's always been a stereotypical hallmark of the American Black population
Historically fried chicken and watermelon are stereotypical foods associated with black Americans as part of minstrel shows, which were usually performed in blackface, and other racist portrayals of black people. Watermelon in particular was turned into a negative racial stereotype because growing watermelon was one way that emancipated slaves could be financially independent.
Fried chicken has been associated with enslaved black people since before the Civil War, because chickens were the only livestock they were allowed to keep. Well into the 20th century there were also white-owned restaurants and brands that drew on these stereotypical images over the protests of black people.
At best it is very ignorant of the history of racism in the US to have a fried chicken and watermelon special on Juneteenth, because the thought process is just black people holiday = fried chicken and watermelon. At worst it’s just signaling to other racists, which is definitely not an unviable business strategy in some parts of the US.
stereotypical foods associated with black Americans
It was a money thing. Poor people ate chicken, rich people ate beef or pork. It didn't just start with slaves, the frying method is literally Scottish in origin, which is why hillbillies were doing it too.
The insulting part was in ministrel shows, it was portrayed as "a taste of the highlife".
That they were excited for something hillbillies considered normal food. And most people looked down on hillbillies.
There's nothing wrong with fried chicken and watermelon. It's that for a serious event, they're having fried chicken and watermelon.
Like, imagine you have a big event, and that's what there is. Regardless of how much you like it, there's gonna be a pause.
That being said, I'm white, and fried chicken was literally the main course at every family event including weddings growing up. But that's because my family is all hillbillies. That's just what we do. We sure as shit didn't have someone cook it for us that didn't know how, it's one thing when the recipe is 200 years old and the same that your family has always been eating.
Not to mention the most important part of a chicken fry is everyone getting together. My family bitched and fought all the time. But if chicken was being fried it was like an elite military operation.
So getting a plate of bland fried chicken and unsalted watermelon just strips every good part of the tradition away, while reminding you that you could be celebrating.
THANK YOU for your input! My dad was born and raised in Missouri, and I was taught at an early age how to make “real” fried chicken, which is amazing. I couldn’t understand why it would be denigrated, but your reply explains it so well. And TIL watermelon should be salted!
such stereotypes absolutely exist to dehumanize. the other comment about red foods and juneteenth, while not factually false, fully misses the point of OPs question to an embarrassing degree.
edit: i guess to nitpick rather than “a meal imposed by oppressors” you should have said “two foods associated with stereotypes imposed by oppressors.” just to be fair.
I'd argue it depends on who is serving it and what their intentions are. I don't think it's necessarily bad. I went to a local Juneteenth celebration and the food stands were serving some fried chicken, collard greens, jollof rice, etc.
Both tburkhol and I posted about Coon Chicken Inn -- a place for white people BY white people with a denigrating caricature of a black man as their logo (on their delivery vehicles, menu, and even entrances).
It is one thing for a group of people to choose what food to serve themselves, and something else when an oppressed group is mocked, denied rights, and then illustrated as liking foods that EVERYONE likes as if those foods are somehow a hilarious thing for them to eat. Side note: Sooo many places serve fried chicken that the only reason it is racist is associations like Coon Chicken Inn (and the racism leading to its creation). Lots of BBQ places in particular serve collards as well as Caribbean spots. Jollof is specifically African (not American). If I see Jollof or Fufu on the menu, I'm hoping for cassava leaves instead of collards, but I understand it isn't as available in the U.S.
That's part of the cruelty. Almost everybody loves fried chicken. But growing up in the deep south, they were mocked for it in nasty ways I witnessed (but don't feel comfortable describing).
Yes absolutely. I went to high school in the north from 02-06 and took an elective class that was African American history for the first half of the school year and Vietnam War history the second half. My teacher for both was a black woman and the first day of class she asked the class what some stereotypes they have heard of black people were, and of course people mentioned all of them. Whe fried chicken was mentioned she said, and I quote, "No we actually don't like fried chicken, WE LOVE IT!". So yeah I mean in the north there's a lot less hate behind it and it's more seen as just a "funny observation". And not to take away from any true hate or racism but the idea of liking fried chicken being a bad thing is so ridiculous to me because fried chicke is fucking amazing.
This really does nail it. In the north, we do have the stereotype that black people like fried chicken. However, that is seen as neutral or positive. Fried chicken is delicious and black people tend to make great fried chicken. What's not to like?
Yeah I don't think anyone I'm friends with or close to that is white views it as a negative stereotype at all up here in NY. However if you drive out to small towns in NY there still uneducated racists flying confederate flags on their front porch, unfortunately.
old.lemmy.world
Hot