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knightly , to Technology in 'Brain-in-a-jar' biocomputers can now learn to control robots
@knightly@pawb.social avatar

Now?

I recall a project that had rat brain cells controlling a turtlebot years ago.

SeaJ OP , to Technology in 'Brain-in-a-jar' biocomputers can now learn to control robots

This came up in my Discover feed and I initially assumed it was a fake news site. Unfortunately all the things in the article are indeed real (aside from the robo-brains which they note are mock ups). The brain cells learning to play Pong made the news last year. Combine this with the creepy as hell skin grafted onto a robot and you have nightmare fuel for life.

nehal3m , to Technology in 'Brain-in-a-jar' biocomputers can now learn to control robots

Ah, the Torment Nexus is coming along nicely I see.

Icalasari , to Technology in 'Brain-in-a-jar' biocomputers can now learn to control robots

Which means we may see full organic to digital conversion within the next half century

Ethical horrors aside, been wondering if that would happen in the foreseeable future or not

db2 , to Technology in 'Brain-in-a-jar' biocomputers can now learn to control robots
altima_neo ,
@altima_neo@lemmy.zip avatar
KeefChief13 ,

What the fuck

db2 ,

RoboCop movies, watch them

awesome_lowlander ,

That's an epileptic seizure waiting to happen...

L0rdMathias , to Technology in 'Brain-in-a-jar' biocomputers can now learn to control robots

That raises a lot of ethical concerns. It is not possible to prove or disprove that these synthetic homunculi controllers are sentient and intelligent beings.

subignition ,
@subignition@fedia.io avatar

we absolutely should not do this until we understand it

SeaJ OP ,

But if we do that, how will we maximize how much money we make off of it? /s

L0rdMathias ,

I think we should still do it, we probably will never understand unless we do it, but we have to accept the possibility that if these synths are indeed sentient then they also deserve the basic rights of intelligent living beings.

kakes ,

Can't say we as a species have a great history of granting rights to others.

Cocodapuf ,

Slow down... they may deserve the basic rights of living beings, not living intelligent beings.

Lizards have brains too, but these are not more intelligent than lizards.

You would try not to step on a lizard if you saw it on the ground, but you wouldn't think oh, maybe the lizard owns this land, I hope I don't get sued for trespassing.

awesome_lowlander ,

How would we ever understand it, then?

sugartits ,

Nah it's okay. I was called all sorts of names and told I was against progress when I raised such concerns, so obviously I was wrong...

demonsword ,
@demonsword@lemmy.world avatar

There are about 90 billion neurons on a human brain. From the article:

...researchers grew about 800,000 brain cells onto a chip, put it into a simulated environment

that is far less than I believe would be necessary for anything intelligent emerge from the experiment

catloaf ,

Some amphibians have less than two million.

Imgonnatrythis ,

And they are ceos!

yetAnotherUser ,

The amount isn't necessarily an indicator of intelligence, the nunber of connections is very important too

AnUnusualRelic ,
@AnUnusualRelic@lemmy.world avatar

In a couple years, they'll be able to make Trump voters.

admin , (edited )
@admin@lemmy.my-box.dev avatar

I'd wager the main reason we can't prove or disprove that, is because we have no strict definition of intelligence or sentience to begin with.

For that matter, computers have many more transistors and are already capable of mimicking human emotions - how ethical is that, and why does it differ from bio-based controllers?

el_bhm ,

There is no soul in there. God did not create it. Here you go, religion serving power again.

Cocodapuf ,

It is frustrating how relevant philosophy of mind becomes in figuring all of this out. I'm more of an engineer at heart and i'd love to say, let's just build it if we can. But I can see how important that question "what is thinking?" Is becoming.

L0rdMathias ,

Good point. There is a theory somewhere that loosely states one cannot understand the nature of one's own intelligence. Iirc it's a philosophical extension of group/set theory, but it's been a long time since I looked into any of that so the details are a bit fuzzy. I should look into that again.

At least with computers we can mathematically prove their limits and state with high confidence that any intelligence they have is mimicry at best. Look into turing completeness and it's implications for more detailed answers. Computational limits are still limits.

admin ,
@admin@lemmy.my-box.dev avatar

But why wouldn't those same limits not apply to biological controllers? A neuron is basically a transistor.

Excrubulent ,
@Excrubulent@slrpnk.net avatar

I think a simple self-reporting test is the only robust way to do it.

That is: does a type of entity independently self-report personhood?

I say "independently" because anyone can tell a computer to say it's a person.

I say "a type of entity" because otherwise this test would exclude human babies, but we know from experience that babies tend to grow up to be people who self-report personhood. We can assume that any human is a person on that basis.

The point here being that we already use this test on humans, we just don't think about it because there hasn't ever been another class of entity that has been uncontroversially accepted as people. (Yes, some people consider animals to be people, and I'm open to that idea, but it's not generally accepted)

There's no other way to do it that I can see. Of course this will probably become deeply politicised if and when it happens, and there will probably be groups desperate to maintain a status quo and their robotic slaves, and they'll want to maintain a test that keeps humans in control as the gatekeepers of personhood, but I don't see how any such test can be consistent. I think ultimately we have to accept that a conscious intellect would emerge on its own terms and nothing we can say will change that.

disguy_ovahea , to Technology in 'Brain-in-a-jar' biocomputers can now learn to control robots

I have no mouth and I must scream.

Varyk , to Technology in 'Brain-in-a-jar' biocomputers can now learn to control robots

Murderbot.

Murrrderbooooot.

800,000 brain cells played pong.

Creepy.

That's murderbot's ancestor.

SkybreakerEngineer ,

Has it asked for any soap operas yet?

yessikg , to micromobility - Ebikes, scooters, longboards: Whatever floats your goat, this is micromobility in Telescoping e-trike adapts to recumbent riders short or tall
@yessikg@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

Looks great for ride-sharing

Creat , to micromobility - Ebikes, scooters, longboards: Whatever floats your goat, this is micromobility in Telescoping e-trike adapts to recumbent riders short or tall

That is such a weird "headline feature" to be adaptable to different riders. I've never known someone who would regularly share or swap bikes with someone where this is needed. I need my bike to fit me. I buy adoringly and set it up once. I then never touch saddle height, handlebar position and whatever else is adjustable ever again.

If it brings production costs down for having less variants or sizes, sure. But who needs this as a feature so desperately that it's one of 3 l features even mentioned in this post (except for it being a trike in the first place, I guess).

FartsWithAnAccent OP Mod ,
@FartsWithAnAccent@fedia.io avatar

Not even all that unusual a feature for trikes, but I get the appeal: It's for lending it out and making it more compact for storage or transport. Being adjustable also ensures a good fit.

basxto , to Fuck Cars in [article] Japan is inventing trains
@basxto@discuss.tchncs.de avatar

Reading a few articles about this, it seems a big concern is area. They wanna squeeze them in every free space they have between and around roads. Conveyor belts can probably do a lot sharper curves etc. than railways. If they do special small rails, they’ll also need special trains for that.

From the articles it’s also not clear if it’s from one point to another point or from multiple to multiple. They talk about deliveries, which would rather be multi to multi, but it’s not explicitly mentioned anywhere.

NESSI3 , to micromobility - Ebikes, scooters, longboards: Whatever floats your goat, this is micromobility in Telescoping e-trike adapts to recumbent riders short or tall

Looks fun but I can't afford it. That trike costs more than my first car.

FartsWithAnAccent OP Mod ,
@FartsWithAnAccent@fedia.io avatar

Price aside, I'd only ride a reverse trike

phoenixz , to Fuck Cars in [article] Japan is inventing trains

pictured using generative tools

So now it's not just "bad CGI idea", it's "bad CGI idea generated by AI".

Next up: people investing billions in said cool looking bad CGI project only to find out none of it works and after wasting half a decade, they'll come to the conclusion that they'll need to invent a large transportation system with metal wheels that will run on a specialized track where you can add or remove carts as needed.

It's so bad that we don't have any of this yet!

Seriously, fuck Elon Musk for getting these scams popularized

AA5B , to Fuck Cars in [article] Japan is inventing trains

A 500km tunnel would be only $23B, and they call that wildly expensive?

Let me introduce you to a 1.5k tunnel for $22B

themusicman ,

Here's one which is actually being built: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_Rail_Link

$5.5 billion (NZD) for 3.5 km

jumperalex , to Fuck Cars in [article] Japan is inventing trains

Hmmmm I'm still skeptical mind you, but hear me out ...

What if there's benefits to be had by the traction motors being stationary, the electrical connections being fixed instead of moving contacts (read: not 3rd rail or overhead catenary), and the simplicity of containers not being all connected for easy removal from the conveyor without disrupting the movement of other containers?

Mind you I can't imagine how this system can operate at reasonable speeds vs cargo trains that apparently hit 100km/h in Japan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_Freight_Trains_(Japan) ) but surely my imagination isn't good enough.

Lost_My_Mind ,

I don't think speed is the thing we need to concentrate on anymore. You could have this country spanning convayer belt essentially, and power it all with solar. Thereby reducing pollution by a HUGE amount within Japan.

And hopefully other European countries will follow. Then we'd have to deal with the beast that is North America. Large sprawling land, both in Canada, and America. Especially America would be difficult. Canada probably has an entire unused northern half. Whereas America doesn't really have much unused open space in the eastern half. And it's just sooooooo big.

I have zero faith this will ever come to America. Too much politics. Too much zoning issues. Too much distance.

But it should work great in Japan and Europe.

jumperalex ,

I won't agree or disagree with the speed comment, you could very well be correct.

As for powering by solar in Japan (and any other currently electrified system), I would guess that's easily done right now by changing how their power is generated; and that doesn't require a change in the system, just the generation. In japan around 66% of their rail is already electrified (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railway_electrification_in_Japan look at the summary box showing total miles and electrified miles). So I'm still skeptical that a conveyor system is the answer vs adding more electrified rail in that same strip of land and powering it with solar generation. But again, maybe there's something to be gained with such a different engineering solution per my OP.

And while you're spot on for the US (less than 1% from my google search) a conveyor won't solve it sadly unless there's something about that which makes it cheaper to deploy then adding a catenary system to our current railways.

invertedspear ,

A train sends 100 cargo boxes from town A to B in an hour. It takes 4 hours to put all the boxes in, and 5 hours to pull the boxes off the train and stack them in the yard

Conveyer sends 1 box every 6 minutes for 10 hours.

Same throughput, but one is easier to schedule workers around at both ends. I’ve never worked in a train yard or anything, don’t know how accurate my time frames are or anything, just trying to imagine what’s better about this.

jumperalex ,

Hmmm certainly something to think about. Like I said, skeptical but also asking about what I hadn't thought of [cheers]

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