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omgitsaheadcrab , to Technology in NetBSD bans all commits of AI-generated code

Ok but how is anyone meant to know if you generated your docstrings using copilot?

Zos_Kia ,
@Zos_Kia@lemmynsfw.com avatar

I'm saddened to use this phrase but it is literally virtue signalling. They have no way of knowing lmao

Venator ,

It's also probably to make things slightly simpler from a legal perspective.

Zos_Kia ,
@Zos_Kia@lemmynsfw.com avatar

That makes sense yes

best_username_ever ,

It’s actually simple to detect: if the code sucks or is written by a bad programmer, and the docstrings are perfect, it’s AI. I’ve seen this more than once and it never fails.

TimeSquirrel ,
@TimeSquirrel@kbin.social avatar

So your results are biased, because you're not going to see the decent programmers who are just using it to take mundane tasks off their back (like generating boilerplate functions) while staying in control of the logic. You're only ever going to catch the noobs trying to cheat without fully understanding what it is they're doing.

best_username_ever ,

You're only ever going to catch the noobs.

That’s the fucking point. Juniors must learn, not copy paste random stuff. I don’t care what seniors do.

Zos_Kia ,
@Zos_Kia@lemmynsfw.com avatar

I'm confused, do people really use copilot to write the whole thing and ship it without re reading?

neclimdul ,

Not specific to AI but someone flat out told me they didn't even run the code to see it work. They didn't understand why I would or expect that before accepting code. This was someone submitting code to a widely deployed open source project.

So, I would expect the answer is yes or very soon to be yes.

sugar_in_your_tea ,

I literally did an interview that went like this:

  1. Applicant used copilot to generate nontrivial amounts of the code
  2. Copilot generated the wrong code for a key part of the algorithm; applicant didn't notice
  3. We pointed it out, they fixed it
  4. They had to refactor the code a bit, and ended up making the same exact mistake again
  5. We pointed out the error again...

And that's in an interview, where you should be extra careful to make a good impression...

best_username_ever ,

Around me, most beginners who use that don't have the skills to understand or even test what they get. They don't want to learn I guess, ChatGPT is easier.

I recently suspected a new guy was using ChatGPT because everything seemed perfect (grammar, code formatting, classes made with design patterns, etc.) but the code was very wrong. So I did some pair programming with him and asked if we could debug his simple application. He didn't know where the debug button was.

Zos_Kia ,
@Zos_Kia@lemmynsfw.com avatar

Guilty as charged, ten years into the job and I never learned to use a debugger lol.

Seriously though that's amazing to me I never met one of those... I guess 95% of them will churn out of the industry in less than five years...

Tja ,

Debug button? There is a button that inserts 'printf("%s:%s boop! \n" , __FUNCTION__, __LINE__) ;'?

Xantar ,

Magic, I guess ?

mannycalavera ,
@mannycalavera@feddit.uk avatar

They'll use AI to detect it.... obviously. ☺️

SMillerNL ,

Are they long, super verbose and often incorrect?

Terces ,

How do they know that you wrote it yourself and didn't just steal it?

This is a rule to protect themselves. If there is ever a case around this, they can push the blame to the person that committed the code for breaking that rule.

sirico ,
@sirico@feddit.uk avatar

This is the only reason rules exist, not to stop people doing a thing but to be able to enforce or defect responsibility when they do.

ripcord ,
@ripcord@lemmy.world avatar

I mean, generally rules at least are to strongly discourage people from doing a thing, or to lead to things that WOULD prevent people from doing a thing.

A purely conceptual rule by itself would not magically stop someone from doing a thing, but that's kind of a weird way to think about it.

ceasarlegsvin ,

Because they'll be shit?

Docstrings based on the method signature and literal contents of a method or class are completely pointless, and that's all copilot can do. It can't Intuit anything that docstrings are actually there for.

Zos_Kia ,
@Zos_Kia@lemmynsfw.com avatar

Definitely not my experience. With a well structured code base it can be pretty uncanny. I think it's context is limited to files that are currently opened in the editor, so that may be your issue if you're coding with just one file open?

TimeSquirrel , (edited )
@TimeSquirrel@kbin.social avatar

GitHub Copilot introduced a new keyword a little while ago, "@workspace", where it can see everything in your project. The code it generates uses all your own functions and variables in your libraries and it figures out how to use them correctly.

There was one time where I totally went "WTF", because it spat out Python. In a C++ project. But those kind of hallucinations are getting more and more rare. The more code you write, the better it gets. It really does become sort of like a "Copilot", sitting there coding alongside you. The mistake people make is assuming it's going to come up with ideas and algorithms for them without spending any mental energy at all.

I'm not trying to shill. I'm not a programmer by trade. Just a hobbyist who started on QBasic in the ancient times. But I've been trying to learn it off and on for the past 30 years, and I've never learned so much and had so much fun as in the last 1.5 with AI help. I can just think of stuff to do, and shit will just flow out now.

elias_griffin , (edited ) to Technology in NetBSD bans all commits of AI-generated code
@elias_griffin@lemmy.world avatar

So proud of you NetBSD, this is why I sponsor you, slam dunk for the future. I'm working on a NetBSD hardening script and Rice as we speak, great OS with some fantastically valuable niche applications and I think, a new broad approach I'm cooking up, a University Edition. I did hardening for all the other BSD, I saved the best for last!

[EDIT 5/16/2024 15:04 GMT -7] NetBSD got Odin lang support yesterday. That totally seals the NetBSD deal for me if I can come up with something cool for my workstation with Odin.

If you would like to vote on whether, or by what year, AI will be in the Linux Kernel on Infosec.space:

https://infosec.space/@wravoc/112441828127082611

ripcord ,
@ripcord@lemmy.world avatar

Thanks for your efforts Elias!

diffusive , to Technology in NetBSD bans all commits of AI-generated code

I never felt so close to try NetBSD as after reading this 😃

WalnutLum , to Technology in NetBSD bans all commits of AI-generated code

This is a good move for international open source projects, with multiple lawsuits in multiple countries around the globe currently ongoing, the intellectual property nature of code made using AI isn't really secure enough to open yourself up to the liability.

I've done the same internally at our company.
You're free to use whatever tool you want but if the tool you use spits out copyrighted code, and the law eventually has decided that model users instead of model trainers are liable for model output, then that's on you buddy.

sugar_in_your_tea ,

Yup. We don't allow AI tools on our codebase, but I allow it for interviews. I honestly haven't been impressed by it at all, it just encourages not understanding the code.

brbposting ,

Does this mean you have indicated to your employees and/or contractors that you intend to hold them legally liable in the case someone launches litigation against you?

todd_bonzalez , to Technology in NetBSD bans all commits of AI-generated code

Lots of stupid people asking "how would they know?"

That's not the fucking point. The point is that if they catch you they can block future commits and review your past commits for poor quality code. They're setting a quality standard, and establishing consequences for violating it.

If your AI generated code isn't setting off red flags, you're probably fine, but if something stupid slips through and the maintainers believe it to be the result of Generative AI, they will remove your code from the codebase and you from the project.

It's like laws against weapons. If you have a concealed gun on your person and enter a public school, chances are that nobody will know and you'll get away with it over and over again. But if anyone ever notices, you're going to jail, you're getting permanently trespassed from school grounds, and you're probably not going to be allowed to own guns for a while.

And, it's a message to everyone else quietly breaking the rules that they have something to lose if they don't stop.

homesweethomeMrL ,

Lots of stupid people asking "how would they know?"

That's not the fucking point.

Okay, easy there, Chief. We were just trying to figure out how it worked. Sorry.

NotMyOldRedditName ,

It was a fair question, but this is just going to turn out like universities failing or expelling people for alleged AI content in papers.

They can't prove it. They try to use AI tools to prove it, but those same tools will say a thesis paper from a decade ago is also AI generated. Pretty sure I saw a story of a professor accusing someone based off a tool having his own past paper fail the same tool

Short of an admission of guilt, it's a witch hunt.

jaybone , to Technology in NetBSD bans all commits of AI-generated code

I was hoping they ban it because it’s shit, but banning it for copyright reasons is fine too.

possiblylinux127 , to Technology in NetBSD bans all commits of AI-generated code
@possiblylinux127@lemmy.zip avatar

We need to see more of this

bamboo , to Technology in NetBSD bans all commits of AI-generated code

I can understand why a project might want to do this until the law is fully implemented and testing in court, but I can tell most of the people in this thread haven’t actually figured out how to effectively use LLMs productively. They’re not about to replace software engineers, but as a software engineer, tools like GitHub copilot and ChatGPT are excellent at speeding up a workflow. ChatGPT for example is an excellent search engine that can give you a quick understanding of a topic. It’ll generate small amounts of code more quickly than I could write it by hand. Of course I’m still going to review that code to ensure it is to the same quality that hand written code would be, but overall this is still a much faster problem.

The luddites who hate on LLMs would have complained about the first compilers too, because they could write marginally faster assembly by hand.

Tja ,

Same for intellisense, IDEs, Debuggers, linters, static analyzers, dynamic languages, garbage collection, NoSQL databases...

Anti_Iridium ,

Why use a computer to do the work when I could do myself? /s

moon , to Technology in NetBSD bans all commits of AI-generated code

I get banning for quality, but for potential copyright is pretty stupid.

Spedwell ,

It's not really stupid at all. See the matrix code example from this article: https://spectrum.ieee.org/ai-code-generation-ownership

You can't really know when the genAI is synthesizing from thousands of inputs or just outright reciting copyrighted code. Not kosher if it's the latter.

tsonfeir , to Technology in Slack is now using all content, including DMs, to train LLMs
@tsonfeir@lemm.ee avatar

Is there a self hosted slack-like that has a mobile app

far_university1990 ,

Is there a self hosted slack-like?

tsonfeir ,
@tsonfeir@lemm.ee avatar

Is there self hosting?

snooggums ,
@snooggums@midwest.social avatar

Is there self?

Numenor ,

David Hume!

mp3 ,
@mp3@lemmy.ca avatar
  • Matrix
  • Mattermost
  • Rocket Chat
tsonfeir ,
@tsonfeir@lemm.ee avatar

Is there a decent client? Desktop and mobile?

thepaperpilot ,

For matrix specifically, I recommend fluffy chat on mobile and cinny for web/desktop. Most notably, they both support the not-yet-official spec on custom emojis and stickers, which I think is important for any slack-like.

For the server (since you want to self host), you'd probably want to do Synapse - it supports not being federated as well as SSO. Also it wasn't mentioned by mp3, but xmpp is another protocol that's used by many large companies for internal chat systems as well.

jqubed ,
@jqubed@lemmy.world avatar

Does IRC still exist? I remember laughing when I first saw Slack and its early competitors because people were excited about it and when I finally used it I realized it was basically just IRC with a nicer interface. I’m assuming these offer improvements like encryption?

admin ,
@admin@lemmy.my-box.dev avatar

Nah, there's tons of features that slack has over irc. To start with inline media (images, audio, video), but most importantly lots of out of the box external integrations and webhooks.

jqubed ,
@jqubed@lemmy.world avatar

Yeah, now there is, but I don’t think a lot of those features were in when I first used it over a decade ago. It became a lot more useful over the years.

Kushan ,
@Kushan@lemmy.world avatar

It didn't require using arcane commands just to sign up and log in. I love IRC and will always remember it fondly, but it wasn't easy for a novice to use and that's why things like slack and discord took off.

0x0 ,

Yes, IRC still exists... as does XMPP.

0x01 ,

Rocket chat I think checks those boxes

tsonfeir ,
@tsonfeir@lemm.ee avatar

Subscription to self host? lol. Am I missing something?

Pistcow ,

Your wallet?

tsonfeir ,
@tsonfeir@lemm.ee avatar

I’ll pay a flat fee, but not a per user fee.

Jajcus ,

Subscription to a software is not mutually exclusive with self-hosting. Developers deserve to earn money, especially those who do not rely on collecting data, showing ads and enshittification of their cloud platform.

tsonfeir ,
@tsonfeir@lemm.ee avatar

I’ll pay a flat fee.

holycrap ,

I'm self hosting rocket and I never gave them a dime

tsonfeir ,
@tsonfeir@lemm.ee avatar

I have 400 users though.

holycrap ,

Sounds like rocket won't be a good fit for you then.

ryguyflyguy ,

Zulip is pretty nice

tsonfeir ,
@tsonfeir@lemm.ee avatar

Why are they charging?

essteeyou ,

So they don't go out of business.

ryguyflyguy ,

Unless you’re setting it up for a business, the free tier should be enough. They have options for both self-hosting and hosted versions

tsonfeir ,
@tsonfeir@lemm.ee avatar

It’s a business with 300 users, but only about 50 of them would even use it. The others DO need accounts for the one time per month they login. But with their pricing, and SSO plan, that’s $3000/m

What.. the.. fuck.

I am in the wrong business lol.

possiblylinux127 ,
@possiblylinux127@lemmy.zip avatar

Maybe Matrix

gadgetroid ,
  • Nextcloud Talk
  • Mattermost
  • Matrix
bappity , to Technology in Slack is now using all content, including DMs, to train LLMs
@bappity@lemmy.world avatar

fucks sake

Gamers_Mate , to Technology in Slack is now using all content, including DMs, to train LLMs

Instead of working on their platform to get discord users to jump ship they decide to go in the same direction.
Also pretty sure training LLMs after someone opts out is illegal?

sapphiria ,
@sapphiria@lemmy.blahaj.zone avatar

Wait, discord is also doing this?

reimufumo ,
@reimufumo@lemmy.ca avatar

Not currently and publically at least. They're feeding your messages into an LLM, https://x.com/DiscordPreviews/status/1790065494432608432 but that's not as bad as training one with your messages

FaceDeer ,
@FaceDeer@fedia.io avatar

Also pretty sure training LLMs after someone opts out is illegal?

Why? There have been a couple of lawsuits launched in various jurisdictions claiming LLM training is copyright violation but IMO they're pretty weak and none of them have reached a conclusion. The "opting" status of the writer doesn't seem relevant if copyright doesn't apply in the first place.

deweydecibel ,

but IMO they're pretty weak

Well, thankfully, it's not up to you.

FaceDeer ,
@FaceDeer@fedia.io avatar

Nor is it up to you. But fact remains, it's not illegal until there are actually laws against it. The court cases that might determine whether current laws are against it are still ongoing.

Grimy ,

If copyrights apply, only you and stack own the data. You can opt out but 99% of users don't. No users get any money. Google or Microsoft buys stack so only they can use the data. We only get subscription based AI, open source dies.

If copyrights don't apply, everyone owns the data. The users still don't get any money but they get free open source AI built off their work instead of closed source AI built off their work.

Having the website have copyright of the content in the context of AI training would be a fucking disaster.

NovaPrime ,
@NovaPrime@lemmy.ml avatar
  1. It's not illegal. 2. "Law" isn't a real thing in an oligarchy, except insofar as it can be used by those with capital and resources to oppress and subjugate those they consider their lessors and to further perpetuate the system for self gain
ConfusedPossum , to Technology in Slack is now using all content, including DMs, to train LLMs

I use Slack at work everyday. I suppose this does feel off in some way but I'm not sure I'm the right amount of upset about this? I don't really mind if they use my data if it improves my user experience, as long as the platform doesn't reveal anything sensitive or personal in a way that can be traced back to me.

Slack already does allow your admin to view all of your conversations, which is more alarming to me

SeedyOne ,

The problem is where you said "as long as" because we already know companies AND the AI itself can't be trusted to not expose sensitive info inadvertently. At absolute best, it's another vector to be breached.

ConfusedPossum ,

It's obvious when you say it like that. I don't like the idea of some prompt hacker looking at memes I sent to my coworker

Blueshift ,

Slack already does allow your admin to view all of your conversations, which is more alarming to me

I’m a slack admin for my company, and I can tell you that no: admins can’t read DMs or private channels they’re not a part of

0x0 , to Technology in Slack is now using all content, including DMs, to train LLMs

mattermost anyone?

possiblylinux127 ,
@possiblylinux127@lemmy.zip avatar

Its used by NASA and the US Air Force so security wise it probably is pretty solid.

Croquette ,

An issue with mattermost is that some useful features are behind a paywall, like group calls.

I'd go with nextcloud since all their features are included regardless of if you pay or not

0x0 ,

Ain't everything open-souce?

Croquette ,

Open-source does not equal free. There is probably a way to circumvent their paywall, but on their website, self-hosted free version has a limit of 1-on-1 for calls.

If you want a group call, you need to pay, even if you self-host.

me_jumper ,

Wait, which calls do you mean? We're hosting or own free mattermost and I've never had that problem.
We're pretty happy with mattermost overall, but it's also a small tech-savvy team.

admin , to Technology in Slack is now using all content, including DMs, to train LLMs
@admin@lemmy.my-box.dev avatar

Customers own their own Customer Data.

Okay, that's good.

Immediately after that:

Slack [...] will never identify any of our customers or individuals as the source of any of these improvements to any third party, other than to Slack’s affiliates or sub-processors.

You'd hope the owner would get a say in that.

stellargmite ,

So you sign up to confirm that your IP is yours, while simultaneously agreeing to sell it off , but the source will be anonymous other than to who it’s sold to or anyone else Slack decides they want to know. These tech contracts and TOS should just say “we will (try) not do bad, but you agree to let us do bad, and if bad happens its your fault”.

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